[Kingy]

Just because the existing bolts are in doesn't mean they are in the right place IMHO. Take Consenting for example. the 3rd bolt (in place since the 80's) is in a poor position and has been the cause of broken bones due to people decking. Should we consider this in the 'right' position just because its already there?

[spidermonkey09]

Just because the existing bolts are in doesn't mean they are in the right place IMHO. Take Consenting for example. the 3rd bolt (in place since the 80's) is in a poor position and has been the cause of broken bones due to people decking. Should we consider this in the 'right' position just because its already there?

It isn't now since Ian Dunn fixed it! But the point stands.

[Kingy]

It isn't now since Ian Dunn fixed it! But the point stands.

Sorry! I'm a bit out of the cove loop... thats a good effort of Ian.

[jwi]

Moving bolts clipped on lead is a totally different proposition than adding dogging bolts for convenience. I accept the former, as long as the clipping position doesn't get harder for short climbers, but not so much the latter

[ferret]

Instead of coming up with some kind of general criteria would it not be be better to present your rationale to some combination of local climbers/active bolters/access advocates/climber who put up the route/people who have previously climbed it or who are currently trying it?
I took the same approach when I wanted to glue a broken hold back on a boulder project I was trying. It was already looking at being around 8A+ and the break made it at least a grade harder and more importantly quite unpleasant. Spoke to all the local developers and the most active climbers and everybody said go for it. It's no masterpiece but I occasionally see it on YouTube videos, glad I glued it.

[shark]

I don’t think anybody is unhappy with extra or replacement bolts that make for safer or easier clipping and extra bolts to reduce runouts generally seem to remain ie Obsession. Don’t think there would be too many upset if there was an extra bolt at the start of Obscene Toilet and another in the top wall.

Just curious about an extra bolt purely placed for dogging that is probably not going to get clipped on lead

[shark]

Instead of coming up with some kind of general criteria would it not be be better to present your rationale to some combination of local climbers/active bolters/access advocates/climber who put up the route/people who have previously climbed it or who are currently trying it?

 

[spidermonkey09]

Just curious about an extra bolt purely placed for dogging that is probably not going to get clipped on lead

When did the Bat Route one go in? I had naively assumed it was ancient as its very rusty.

Off topic, but how famous/notorious was the Obsession runout? On a level with New Dawn, where its seen as an integral part of the route, or was it always seen as an irritant?

[shark]

Just curious about an extra bolt purely placed for dogging that is probably not going to get clipped on lead

When did the Bat Route one go in? I had naively assumed it was ancient as its very rusty.

Off topic, but how famous/notorious was the Obsession runout? On a level with New Dawn, where its seen as an integral part of the route, or was it always seen as an irritant?

Might not be stainless? Placed by Zippy.

I thought the runout on Obsession added to the character. Steve Crowe put it in for Karin IIRC. He also added a couple on the Prow/push Up and they haven’t weathered well.

[petejh]

On a side note, it pisses me off to see routes littered with rusting bolts. There's simply no justification for placing non-stainless bolts or hangers, a worse crime even than placing rusting pegs.

Shark here's an idea for you - use an 8mm petzl couer pulse as your dogging bolt. I use them for positioning while bolting new routes. They're piss to use, bomber to fall on, and come out easily when you've finished. I use the 12mm version but if you drilled a 12mm hole on a hard route it might be usable as mono.. hence the 8mm suggestion.

You'd drill an 8mm hole and whenever you go to try the route you stick in your couer pulse and remove it when you finish your session.

I doubt anyone who didn't know it was there would notice the hole.

[shark]

Hi Pete - yes we were thinking along those lines

[petejh]

 

[36chambers]

Can I do this on all the routes I'm working?

[Johnny Brown]

Far be it for me to encourage bolting but Abracadabseil have got a bunch of lightly used 12mm Couer Pulse that were returned and we don't know what to do with. Can also source new 8mm obvs.

[shark]

Far be it for me to encourage bolting but Abracadabseil have got a bunch of lightly used 12mm Couer Pulse that were returned and we don't know what to do with. Can also source new 8mm obvs.

I’d be happy to take the 12mm off your hands - presumably the whole unit, bolt and hanger?

Edit. Just checked and I see the whole bolt is removable to leave a hole What a good idea. I’ll drop you a text

[Stu Littlefair]

I think it's a really bad idea.

Peppering an existing route with new 12mm holes* because its a pain in the arse to dog a section? Just no; it seems like the same principle as not chipping a hold to make the route easier, albeit a greyer version of that dilemma. I'd prefer a new dogging bolt TBH.

In general I think this isn't a good idea, especially if the route isn't runout here and it's purely to aid pulling onto the rock. It's a totally different thing to adding bolts to neuter runouts which can be OK in some circumstances, but which is still happening too much IMO. Adding dogging bolts just opens a and it's hard to see where it would stop.

*obvs an exaggeration for the purposes of making the point.

[Paul B]

That wasn't the same sentiment offered when Directissima got an additional first bolt! IMO that changed the character considerably 

A few anecdotes that probably cancel each other out:

A few years back I asked on the FB group about rebolting Dreamtime. The bolts were in poor positions and I was needing to extend one with an 8ft sling and a heavy biner that I could nudge to get it swinging, clip it and carry on. I f*cked this up more than once. Other ascentionists had taken to taping draws to the rock. On the higher section, another poorly placed bolt meant I was clipping by my feet and managed on one attempt to clip through my shoe pull on loop (panic!). I got shouted down about re-bolting the route as 'others managed'.

A year or so later, Seb bolted an alternative start and re-bolted the rest; the route now gets done a lot more and is better for it.  I guess in this instance as per LA mentioned by Doyle, the FA/bolter just got it a bit wrong.

On another Kilnsey route which doesn't get done all that often, I was having to pull up a stick at about half height as the crux section doesn't have a dogging bolt. This was a PITA (in a 1st world problems kind of way). However, when I finally took the fall it was 'exciting' but fine. If there was a bolt in place I think there'd be the temptation to hang a long sling etc. from the bolt neutering the route a bit. I'm not sure there are many UK routes that can't be overcome by a stick and a bit of ropework.

On another FB group I've seen a misguided soul bolt a ground belay to use with removal bolts whilst soloing. I'm with Stu on this one, making it OK to drill holes for these things is a  .

(PS are we talking about Rainshadow here as that's the last time I heard you thinking out loud about these things?).

[abarro81]

Totally depends on the route... and the location... and what the locals think... but adding a bolt that you/your mate can use then removing it  and leaving a hole (even if filled in) sounds like a bad plan to me. Can't really comment further without knowing the route.

[Doylo]

Just in case any one thinks I’m a cunt I did rebolt the whole route and get rid of some of the rusty ones.  ;)Still a fair few that could do with removing. (Ps. I am a cunt).

[shark]

      Revelations       

[SamT]

Get it soloed!!

[SamT]

As a slight aside - watching the Ben/Agincourt vid recently and thought that the rusty old bolts in that were presumably left in for dogging?

I assume they are the old aid bolts.  Bit of an eyesore though.  I guess battery powered angle grinders weren't available in the 80s either.

[Kingy]

Revelations

Fine by me to put a new bolt in to make it easier to work. The existing first bolt is preclipped anyway (if I'm right in assuming ur talking about putting the dogging bolt at the crux?) The existing bolt predates the invention of the heel toe sequence and it cant be worked properly as the bolt is too far right meaning every attempt has go be from the ground, making it harder to get sussed. As long as the existing bolt was removed and the hole made good I don't see any issue. It seems dumb to make an already desperate route needlessly harder for people. Shouldnt we be encouraging ppl to try these things? 

[Paul B]

Like it! Planners often stipulate that if you take a tree out that you plant a replacement. Yes tidying up karma is possible but I don’t think that ethically that is sound

We were told to replace every one removed with two recently; is that a mandate?

[shark]

Hi Ted

Yes the first bolt is preclipped - there is an old bolt and a newer slightly higher and left. Both are too high and too far left to work the crux easily. (BTW I’m assuming you mean the first bolt is too far left not too far right.)

Im confused regarding the relevance of what you say about the heel toe sequence as it is hard to work whatever sequence you use.

In short the first bolt is too high and too far left to be able to work the crux easily. A lower dogging bolt would be useful - I’m not suggesting that the existing first bolt is removed.

By the way a low glue in was placed by Kristian near ground level but off to the left to keep the rope out of the way, I assume.