[Murph]

Grades are weird we all know that.  I’ve climbed a few things recently that have got me wondering more and more. Bad Lip gets 7A and so does Trackside. Both feel easier to me than Strawberries. Strawberries is fair at 6B though. I could just be lucky that a sort of right heel rockover type move is easy for me for some reason, I don’t know. The actual pulling on a crimp hardness of Bad Lip didn’t feel particularly more demanding than Banana Finger though. Early Doors felt quite hard without a spotter then very easy with one. Maybe I just got lucky.

In contrast, Dan’s Wall felt very hard. I had to dig quite deep to get it done and don’t think it will ever become routine. Similarly Marks Roof Original - that was a desperate fight. Tiger felt very hard for 6A and Egg Arete may as well be 7B.

Part of this view of grade is going to be down to rehearsing moves until they are dialled, getting more efficient with when to pull hard, and other aspects like exactly what point on the warmed-up curve you are. But still, after doing them a few of these problems felt quite easy while others felt very hard. Some I think I can lap next time but some feel like they would always be a fight.

There are also obviously mis-graded problems, thing where the description and the problem don’t match up or something. Like Bigger Prize or Seams Simple Enough, I’m not interested in those. Folk shouldn’t take 7A for them.

Anyone got any recommendations for 7s that could, with the right beta, feel easy for the grade? I’m hopeful that there is a 7C that feels 7A but grateful for any pointers really.

[user deactivated]

Do NoT worrY murPh, helP is aT hanD. UFCK will proDuCe a brieF GuiDe to BAGGING youR first of the GraDe in the NeXt issuE. You DO raise an Important poinT in YouR posT hoWever.

WhEN a LimiT boulDereR TAKES a GraDE is He or ShE GETTING that graDe? Ie DO U ‘GeT whT yourE GiVEN?’ Or in OtHer worDs have U GoT thaT BoulDer? On reflecTion is IT all parT of The proceSs Of LimiT FloW baseD ClimBing GoAls. Keep In minD the currency FloWs in one direction OnlY thouGh. Be aware U MUST log any success with the HeadMasteR and his DeputieS

[user deactivated]

If YOU or any other LimiT baseD bouldErerS havE receTly TAKEN or GOT a BoulDer that felt easY for the GraDe. This post in no way is designed to PISS on Your ChIPs

[tomtom]

Murph,

Many grit 7’a are knacky compared to lime ones I think... which can mean that once figured out they can feel comparatively easy - whereas often on more ‘basic’ (? Gross generalisation!) lime problems a hard pull is still a hard pull...

Doesn’t mean it’s any less deserving of the grade though..

I think most peak grades are consistent as they’ve often had a long time to settle down and be shifted about.. though there are always soft touches and stiff grades

You do have super strong fingers and shoulders... which will make some stuff seem super easy... 😃

Like reachy knacky stuff is for me

I’m trying hard to think of problems that are soft touches that don’t involve being tall or knacky :D and can’t....

[tommytwotone]

As a shortarse with no knack, the ones I've done in session:


Trackside
Satin
Honorary Valley
Crash n Gurn

[user deactivated]

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[Fiend]

I’m hopeful that there is a 7C that feels 7A but grateful for any pointers really.

Do a classic 6C that feels like 7A instead? It will be the same difficulty but just as good and probably less over-chalked / eroded.

P.S. I like Honourary Caley too, it's excellent and should stay cooler for longer. Satin is easy 6C but great too. Stall Arete is cool and will also stay in nick longer.

[tommytwotone]

A lot of people say that Breakfast is an easy one but I had a mega-protracted battle with it, largely as I had gone down a blind alley knack-wise, and was pursuing beta that would not work for me.

I sacked it off, went back a while later with fresh eyes / preconceptions dropped and saw it off in a handful of goes.

Oh, and I forgot that Hamper's Direct thing which is a proper gritstone thrutch / hump fest but is relatively easy if that's your sort of thing.

[Murph]

TT - yeah that’s it a knack thing I think. Once those ones go it can feel like what was all the fuss about. In all honesty though some lime ones are just the same. Pull here while pressing there and once you’ve learnt the notes playing the tune is easy.

TTT - thanks man Satin Honorary and Hampers I have never tried so will be sure to give them a look. Breakfast felt 7A to me!

Fiend - have had a session on Stall. That was when I was going really well like pretty much flashing 7A on lime (TT witnessed some of my best bits). I put a full session in on it and it felt miles away. Maybe when it goes it feels easy but when it doesn’t it feels impossible. I’ve had plenty of those. This morning put an hour into True Git and it May as well have been 8A.

Orrin put 14 sessions into Limit Breaker and when it went he said “oh my god that was easy”. That’s the kind of response I sort of wondered whether others had had and could relate.

[joel182]

A lot of people say that Breakfast is an easy one but I had a mega-protracted battle with it, largely as I had gone down a blind alley knack-wise, and was pursuing beta that would not work for me.

I didn't find Breakfast a soft touch either (but am also a shortarse).

Satin is easy 6C but great too.

No way. Satin might be pretty basic, but soft 6C it ain't.

[Murph]

Do a classic 6C that feels like 7A instead? It will be the same difficulty but just as good and probably less over-chalked / eroded.

Thinking a bit more about this Fiend, I think maybe you’ve misunderstood what I’m after. I’m not really after things that feel hard for me. I had an epic on a well protected Hard Severe last time I climbed at Stanage. I was just looking for recommendations that climb x felt quite do-able and repeatable rather than climb y which was brick hard at the same grade.

But I’m curious - where are the over-chalked and eroded soft touch 7Cs then? Are there any?

Appreciate it’s not a particularly cool thing to inquire about and there are folks who operate in a dimension where grades have no power. I envy them to be honest - to be driven entirely by the pursuit of the craft in the present moment and at one-ness in tune with the beating pulse of the universe...experiencing the truth hidden within and around us but inaccessible to people cut off as they are from reality by a false perception that the are a perceiver perceiving and that feelings matter. Actually envy that quite a bit. I wonder what grade it is?

[user deactivated]

Grade unattainable Murph but keep seeking! In answer to your original post (now we’ve got rid of the fucking gremlin in a gimp suit) famous grouse sit is an overgraded over chalked and eroded 7C which feels like 7A 👍

[teestub]

But I’m curious - where are the over-chalked and eroded soft touch 7Cs then? Are there any?

The Terrace springs to mind although not sure if this has been downgraded now due to erosion!

[user deactivated]

Is the terrace still a boulder problem?

[grimer]

.

[tomtom]

Appreciate it’s not a particularly cool thing to inquire about and there are folks who operate in a dimension where grades have no power.

Enquire away - if I get wind of it I’m all over a soft 7B, like a a Liverpool fan hearing about a ticket to Madrid 😃

[Fiend]

Pffft. Breakfast was easy done in a snowstorm, I'm a short-arse, it was two grades easier than The Nose. Satin is committing but basically easy crimping on a slab. I may or may not be exaggerating, both great problems though.

Murph, I'm not sure a desperate 6C that feels just like 7A will be any harder than a super-soft 7B that feels just like 7A??  P.S. I don't know a lot about soft-touches nor Peak Bouldering but there are some genuinely great problems around. Also Yorkshire.

[36chambers]

But I’m curious - where are the over-chalked and eroded soft touch 7Cs then? Are there any?

The Terrace springs to mind although not sure if this has been downgraded now due to erosion!

Terrace was my first thought.

On lime, I thought Bigger Splash Direct Kneeling was barely any harder than the 7B stand.   

[nai]

On lime, I thought Bigger Splash Direct Kneeling was barely any harder than the 7B stand.   

I'm not finding that, easy enough to the sidepull but then can't get the undercut.

I'd say Famous Grouse is a good shout with the heel beta, only one I've ever managed.

[spidermonkey09]

But I’m curious - where are the over-chalked and eroded soft touch 7Cs then? Are there any?

Not Peak, but Underhand Extension is a friendly 7C once you have Underhand itself wired.

[sdm]

Given that left heel hooks are giving you trouble Murph, leave The Terrace and Famous Grouse for now. Both are all about the left heel.

I thought Breakfast and The Nose were both very soft. Flashed The Nose and did Breakfast second go when 7A wasn't far from my limit. Then I went to repeat Breakfast a year later as a warm up for Famous Grouse and couldn't do it 

[Will Hunt]

I remember thinking Glass Hour was a bit of a joke at 7A. Much easier unless you're a complete baby with donkey feet.

Jim is right about Underhand Extension. It just about slips into 7C, is easily workable and quite limestoneesque. Once you've wired Underhand so you can do it without a cut loose, the extension is a given.

[36chambers]

On lime, I thought Bigger Splash Direct Kneeling was barely any harder than the 7B stand.   

I'm not finding that, easy enough to the sidepull but then can't get the undercut.

I have seen plenty of ways of doing it, it could be that my beta suits me well. Climbing into the stand almost felt like less of a hassle than the awkward high pull on.

Once you've wired Underhand so you can do it without a cut loose, the extension is a given.

Almost sounds like it's not really a grade harder

[sdm]

I thought Soft on the G felt easy for the grade having had the foot sequence shown to me. Took a few goes to get off the ground, then it felt easy.

It suits the lime specialist well. If you can crimp and lock off and don't have awful hip flexibility, it should be fine.

[Will Hunt]

Once you've wired Underhand so you can do it without a cut loose, the extension is a given.

Almost sounds like it's not really a grade harder

You could be right! It's probably half a grade harder, but I always thought Underhand was near the top of 7B+. And if you want to get round the extension with no real power endurance you need to have Underhand totally dialled.

[andy_e]

No you don't. You can scrap your way to the huge set of jugs to rest for three hours before embarking on a totally different style of climbing for the finish.

[tim palmer]

The extension to underhand adds nothing, underhand is a tough 7b+ (harder than the keel  ) but the extension is still 7b+.

[tim palmer]

with that in mind the keel is pretty steady if you can find the right beta

[spidermonkey09]

with that in mind the keel is pretty steady if you can find the right beta

*if you're as strong as Tim Palmer!

I thought The Keel as considerably harder than Underhand Ext (presuming normal build requiring cut loose on chip). Perhaps the Almscliff 7C equation looks something like Underhand Ext < The Keel > Demon Wall Roof Left Hand?

[Will Hunt]

Not that I want to carry on bleating about The Keel, but the cut loose method isn't normal. Only tinies have to do it. I remember there being a time when I thought The Keel was easier than Underhand normal but think I'd revise that now.

And FWIW, the extension to Underhand only adds nothing if you're Tim Palmer, to whom 7B+ is nothing, and 6C is equally nothing, and thus nothing plus nothing is nothing. Basic maths.
I don't think it adds a full grade's worth of difficulty, but it does add something.

[dunnyg]

Some say if you haven't done the cut loose you haven't done the keel. Extension definitely adds something for me (ie the weak) as I havent done it...

[cheque]

nothing plus nothing is nothing

“...you gotta have something, if you wanna beeee with me”

[tim palmer]

the keel with cut loose is probably harder than underhand but that is because the cut loose is terrible beta. 

demon wall left is miles harder than keel or underhand ext .

[spidermonkey09]

demon wall left is miles harder than keel or underhand ext .

Yep. Mistakenly typed the wrong symbol in previous post (maths never was strong point...)

[mr chaz]

Which bit of the peak are these in?

  keep your keel/underwank talk to power club mofos

[Murph]

Thanks chaps. I guess there’s a few to fondle. Yep, left heel dominant climbs - there seem to be a lot of them about these days. On the basis that I’ve done remergence and hanging rib i was hopeful that a couple of those low starts might be easy for the grade. For the avoidance of any doubt I am not thinking of one’s that aren’t really the given grade. But just appreciate not all of us can tell the difference. The 7A I was trying today....it wouldn’t make a difference if it was 8A it wasn’t happening.

Breakfast - some of the confusion must come down to short people using the tall person beta. I put a few sessions into it using my 6’ mate’s beta. Went quickly when I was shown the short arse way. Course, wizards would just do it the right way first time using the force. 

Plus good to know what to go at if I ever find myself back at almscliff.

Ta!

[tomtom]

Underhand is 6C with the double heel beta...

[Footwork]

On lime, I thought Bigger Splash Direct Kneeling was barely any harder than the 7B stand.   

absolute bullshit

[tim palmer]

On lime, I thought Bigger Splash Direct Kneeling was barely any harder than the 7B stand.   

absolute bullshit

true dat

[abarro81]

On lime, I thought Bigger Splash Direct Kneeling was barely any harder than the 7B stand.   

absolute bullshit

true dat

+ 2, and +3 for my wife who did all the other moves on Tsunami easily but couldn't do the move to the lh undercut on the kneel. This, surely, is what we all know already: bouldering grades make relatively little sense, because it only takes 1-2 moves to fit you or not fit you and problems will feel very easy or very hard for the grade. The fact that grades even come close to making sense is really a miracle

[Eddies]

I can think of a few  7C's from previous guidebooks that have since been downgraded to around 7A.

Fact Hunt at Balsow 7C-7A+

Bizarre at the Churnet - 7C-7B

and most recently Man size at Ramshaw. That is still 7C in the latest guidebook and will be downgraded to 7A with the new beta that's in all the vids, so go bag it while its still half-legit!!

On lime I found The Press a soft touch, and, dare I say it, Paint It Black... But all other lime ticks around that grade have been hard fought.

[36chambers]

On lime, I thought Bigger Splash Direct Kneeling was barely any harder than the 7B stand.   

absolute bullshit

true dat

+ 2, and +3 for my wife who did all the other moves on Tsunami easily but couldn't do the move to the lh undercut on the kneel. This, surely, is what we all know already: bouldering grades make relatively little sense, because it only takes 1-2 moves to fit you or not fit you and problems will feel very easy or very hard for the grade. The fact that grades even come close to making sense is really a miracle

I am surprised by these replies, but fair enough.

Although footwork literally tried it twice, so his comment means nothing

[andy_e]

On lime I found The Press a soft touch

Interesting. My strength is locking off on my left shoulder and I've had loads of sessions on it and can't do it yet. I guess strong fingers help too...

[SA Chris]

one trick pony