[shark]

Raven Tor is a pretty important crag to me and probably a couple of other people. Whilst there is no immediate threat to access I'm pretty sensitive to anything that might cause problems.

As a general rule for any crag I think that the principle of avoiding doing anything unnecessary that might rub other recreational users and local residents up the wrong way should be the default position in all climbers minds and we should do the maximum not the minimum in this respect to maintain amicable relationships.

From my POV this includes no wild camping/dossing at the crag (loads more discreet places available), no overnighting in the layby, no BBQ's or fires at the crag and no shitting on the other side of the road used by fishermen. And respectful parking in the bays at the crag or 10 mins walk down the road at the foot of Tideswell Dale. 

I popped to the Tor on Monday and it was very busy and there were several cars parked either side of the bend just past the Tor so went along the base of the crag asking who had parked on the bend and pointing out it would annoy locals. Fortunately, most but not all (you know who you are) accepted the point without argument and moved their cars.

I posted the following photos on the Peak Lime Bouldering and the Peak Sport Climbing pages on Monday to highlight the issue.

Carsblanked2 by TheUKBShark, on Flickr

Carsblanked1 by TheUKBShark, on Flickr

Also came across an old post by Paul Bennett who had picked up (from Peak Area newsletter?) that Henry Folkard had already explored the legality of this sort of parking

Henry by TheUKBShark, on Flickr

It was then queried whether the road was a clearway or not and High Repute copied an image from Google maps showing it signed as a clearway

clearway by TheUKBShark, on Flickr

 

[Will Hunt]

Even if it wasn't a clearway I'd say that was shitty parking. Double parked on a bend where it looks like you can't get two cars down the width of the road? Obviously going to piss off any locals and it's obvious who the culprits are.

[cheque]

  Amazing that people think parking like that is OK. If you're physically capable of climbing at Raven Tor then you can walk from the Parking further up the road. You can walk from the Tideswell Dale or Miller's Dale Station carparks too if it comes down to it FFS.

I've seen a few times on various Facebook groups a kind of "freemen of the land" type justification along the lines of "if it's off the road it's OK", "If you pay your tax you can park anywhere if there are no lines", "The council/ Park only ticket to make money" etc. All seem to rely on the fantasy that even if you do something that's a total fucking nuisance to people then no-one, not even the law, can do anything about it due to loopholes, along the same lines as the "if the last two 9s of the price on the windscreen of a used car blow off they have to sell it you for £59" fallacy. The world doesn't work like that and faced with a situation where residents are complaining that they can barely get down their road due to the clusterfuck in the pictures Shark's posted above we will not come out of it well- the reasonable solution would be to create local parking- that parking already exists and if we don't use it then there's only one way that any dispute can go- badly for us.

[spidermonkey09]

I've seen a few times on various Facebook groups a kind of "freemen of the land" type justification along the lines of "if it's off the road it's OK", "If you pay your tax you can park anywhere if there are no lines", "The council/ Park only ticket to make money" etc. All seem to rely on the fantasy that even if you do something that's a total fucking nuisance to people then no-one, not even the law, can do anything about it due to loopholes, along the same lines as the "if the last two 9s of the price on the windscreen of a used car blow off they have to sell it you for £59" fallacy. The world doesn't work like that and faced with a situation where residents are complaining that they can barely get down their road due to the clusterfuck in the pictures Shark's posted above we will not come out of it well- the reasonable solution would be to create local parking- that parking already exists and if we don't use it then there's only one way that any dispute can go- badly for us.

I found myself immensely frustrated by this type of response (almost word for word) when Kilnsey parking was being discussed on the Yorks facebook group a few years back. Fortunately sanity prevailed and good parking practice is being followed (touch wood), but its amazing the lengths people will go to defend their 'right' to a 30 second walk in!

[Will Hunt]

I found myself immensely frustrated by this type of response (almost word for word) when Kilnsey parking was being discussed on the Yorks facebook group a few years back. Fortunately sanity prevailed and good parking practice is being followed (touch wood), but its amazing the lengths people will go to defend their 'right' to a 30 second walk in!

Indeed. I seem to remember that Boggy said he could park where he liked because he'd driven there from work. As if everyone else who goes in the evenings hasn't been at work.

I've seen a few times on various Facebook groups a kind of "freemen of the land" type justification along the lines of "if it's off the road it's OK", "If you pay your tax you can park anywhere if there are no lines", "The council/ Park only ticket to make money" etc. All seem to rely on the fantasy that even if you do something that's a total fucking nuisance to people then no-one, not even the law, can do anything about it due to loopholes, along the same lines as the "if the last two 9s of the price on the windscreen of a used car blow off they have to sell it you for £59" fallacy.

As much as it's complete bollocks, I do love seeing people who think like this and hearing their moronic views. My favourite bit of what I call "pub law" is this (sounds best if you say it in the voice of a gammon-faced cabbie from Essex):
"If you are driving and you are drunk, if you crash your car then bladdy well make sure you get all four wheels off the facking tarmac. When the filth arrive they can breathalise you but they cannot facking touch you. If your car is not on the Queen's Highway then they cannot facking touch you."

It's the Queen's Highway bit that gets me. Because they've given the road some special pseudo-legal term then it lends a perverse air of legitimacy to whatever shite they're saying.


And while we're on the subject of "climbers are cunts", remember the Longridge posts from years ago. There was a woman whose house borders onto the crag and her young children couldn't get to sleep because of some specimens pumping out beetz from a little boom box and driving their stupid dirtbike up and down the crag. I think the response was, "well she shouldn't have bought a house that was built so close to the crag".


And while we're on the subject of people being cunts, the other all-too-common one is people's obsession with whose right of way it is on the road. Some dashcam footage gets posted up of a Subaru smashing into the side of a granny in a Micra as it careered around a roundabout at 60mph. "But it was his right of way!"

[grimer]

I think I remember sharing a post about access and noise at Longridge one time - stereos, trials bikes etc - and a couple of heads were saying it's all bullshit. Liam Lonsdale checked through one of the guys' instagram and found a photo of him by his motorbike, under the crag. It was so beautiful.

[spidermonkey09]

Indeed. I seem to remember that Boggy said he could park where he liked because he'd driven there from work. As if everyone else who goes in the evenings hasn't been at work.

I'm getting wound up remembering it! The irony is that it was the older climbers, men and women, who'd been climbing there years who were most resistant to adjusting their behaviour, rather than the younger 'wall bred' climbers who stereotypes would suggest would be most averse to a (slightly) longer walk.

[teestub]

Just to confirm on the ticketing side of things, I got one a few years ago. I’d parked what I thought was quite sensibly, quite a long way down the road past the crag where it’s straight and widens up, unaware of the clearway sign. One of the residents at the bottom drive past and the police turned up about 15 mins later.

[cowboyhat]

Who the fuck is Boggy?

[Doylo]

Who the fuck is Boggy?

That fella working Brandenburg isn’t it?

[SA Chris]

Offtopic, but look up "Angry People in Local Newspapers" on Facebook.  Finest Gammon.

[cheque]

My favourite bit of what I call "pub law" is this (sounds best if you say it in the voice of a gammon-faced cabbie from Essex):
"If you are driving and you are drunk, if you crash your car then bladdy well make sure you get all four wheels off the facking tarmac. When the filth arrive they can breathalise you but they cannot facking touch you. If your car is not on the Queen's Highway then they cannot facking touch you."

It's the Queen's Highway bit that gets me. Because they've given the road some special pseudo-legal term then it lends a perverse air of legitimacy to whatever shite they're saying.

“Can’t do a fing mate. Not a facking fing.”

There was a thread on here here years ago about resident complaints about climbers parking in the old Malham “Cove Centre” car park- someone had seen someone taking a leak from their window and complained.

IIRC Someone posted the sage advice that it was OK as long as you pissed on your own car tyre. Picturing a policeman turning up “I’m as disgusted as you Mrs Smith but as all the urine landed on his own property we can’t pursue your complaint- in the eyes of the law this is the same as if he’s peed in his own toilet”.

[tomtom]

I think there is an old law that says you are allowed to relieve yourself on the nearside rear wheel of a cab. The law was from the days when they were horse drawn.

I wonder legally whether this would have to be prosecuted under indecent exposure (which would also put you on the sex offenders register) or some other rule if no body parts were visible. What would happen if you were to empty a bottle of piss into the gutter for instance... would this not be the same as (discretely) pissing in the gutter?

Ru. Calling Ru.... legal advice required

[cheque]

I don’t think anyone would have been prosecuted under anything, it was just the idea that any kind of comeback to climbers from behaving like twats near locals residences could be neutralised by a weird loophole.

[tomtom]

I don’t think anyone would have been prosecuted under anything, it was just the idea that any kind of comeback to climbers from behaving like twats near locals residences could be neutralised by a weird loophole.

I was being general (eg people pissing in the street) not Malham car parks

[Will Hunt]

I'd love them to test the law by driving into a primary school playground and having a slash on their tyre there.

"It's my facking property bought an' paid for, mate. You can't facking touch me."

[user deactivated]

Sorry to interrupt this thread of GloBal and InternaTional significanCe. However UFCK has a New SpeciaL edition Out. And as The entiRe fucking ClimBing populatioN Of Sheffield appears To be parked up at Raven toR to climb a Font 7b roof and GET the grade 7c+, we at UFCK thought it would be a good place to share a ‘happening’ with UKb’s very own Doylo99.

https://thelifetimeesotericticklist.wordpress.com/2019/05/09/dudno-life-aka-mental-caverns-without-sunshine/

By the way if anyone thinks this BloG is on the unusual side, please refer to SHarks Photos above. They must have been HandinG out 20’s aT the crag for Christ’s SaKe

[user deactivated]

Q- how many Climbers does it Take to GET beNs Roof?
A- About200 to DrVe out froM the Works, 50 to haul the mats in, 25 to Spot, 100 to shout Encouragement, 5 To look on Mournfully, anD one topless beefcake to hanG the last hold and pRoclaim it piss for his First of the Grade He’s GOT

[36chambers]

Sorry to interrupt this thread of GloBal and InternaTional significanCe. However UFCK has a New SpeciaL edition Out. And as The entiRe fucking ClimBing populatioN Of Sheffield appears To be parked up at Raven toR to climb a Font 7b roof and GET the grade 7c+, we at UFCK thought it would be a good place to share a ‘happening’ with UKb’s very own Doylo99.

https://thelifetimeesotericticklist.wordpress.com/2019/05/09/dudno-life-aka-mental-caverns-without-sunshine/

By the way if anyone thinks this BloG is on the unusual side, please refer to SHarks Photos above. They must have been HandinG out 20’s aT the crag for Christ’s SaKe

I must admit, I really enjoyed that.

For some reason it reminded me of Barrows' "The 20 most pressing questions in British climbing" (which, in case he sees this, is due another edition ).

[abarro81]

For some reason it reminded me of Barrow's "The 20 most pressing questions in British climbing" (which, in case he sees this, is due another edition ).

I'd love to, I even had about 15 new ones ready a couple of years back... then I went for a job interview where they mentioned they'd looked at my blog (fortunately not those posts!) and I realised there were potential repercussions to posting lists of abusive questions with my name attached.... maybe I need to find a way to do version 3 "anonymously"...

[user deactivated]

PleASE feel free to guest bLoG Alex. Although anonymitY is noT guaranteed. WhiLe UFCK does hosT suBversiVe content and promotes a two Finger SaluTe attitude to the GlobaL ClimBing Community and HeadMasteR and his deputieS, there IS a general ethoS of non sycophancy (arse licking or brown nosing) AND non individually directed Unpleasant attacKs. We here at UFCK feel an All inclusiVe Policy Of Meaningless Shit is taken very very seriously

[cowboyhat]

For some reason it reminded me of Barrow's "The 20 most pressing questions in British climbing" (which, in case he sees this, is due another edition ).

I'd love to, I even had about 15 new ones ready a couple of years back... then I went for a job interview where they mentioned they'd looked at my blog (fortunately not those posts!) and I realised there were potential repercussions to posting lists of abusive questions with my name attached.... maybe I need to find a way to do version 3 "anonymously"...

Pseudonym? Not all the internet has to be as unimaginative as (name)(DOB).


Very interesting how busy the Tor was on that weeknight, having somewhat of a late bloom. Can't believe how many people must be there with all those cars, the other bits of lay-by being chocker. Unexpected consequence of the proliferation of indoor walls? Stanage quiet, Tor stacked to the rafters.

Maybe things will turn out alright after all.

Serious point: Nominate Simon to organise some sort of mandatory car sharing from Hunters Bar, or Works if thats more appropriate these days...?

[tomtom]

Or we could get Simon one of these?

[SamT]

Very interesting how busy the Tor was on that weeknight, having somewhat of a late bloom. Can't believe how many people must be there with all those cars, the other bits of lay-by being chocker. Unexpected consequence of the proliferation of indoor walls? Stanage quiet, Tor stacked to the rafters.

Its good for the sport!

[dunnyg]

Would be better if they got on more esoteric crags to keep them clean for us!

[36chambers]

Very interesting how busy the Tor was on that weeknight, having somewhat of a late bloom. Can't believe how many people must be there with all those cars, the other bits of lay-by being chocker. Unexpected consequence of the proliferation of indoor walls? Stanage quiet, Tor stacked to the rafters.

We had Rubicon and X to ourselves on the same day, boss connies too.

[teestub]

Is there one of those ticket machines, like at the butcher’s counter, in place for Mecca now?

[36chambers]

For some reason it reminded me of Barrow's "The 20 most pressing questions in British climbing" (which, in case he sees this, is due another edition ).

I'd love to, I even had about 15 new ones ready a couple of years back... then I went for a job interview where they mentioned they'd looked at my blog (fortunately not those posts!) and I realised there were potential repercussions to posting lists of abusive questions with my name attached.... maybe I need to find a way to do version 3 "anonymously"...

I'm sure you could find a way, these questions need to be asked!

[user deactivated]

Is there one of those ticket machines, like at the butcher’s counter, in place for Mecca now?

Have u lost your MinD?!

[Yossarian]

For some reason it reminded me of Barrow's "The 20 most pressing questions in British climbing" (which, in case he sees this, is due another edition ).

I'd love to, I even had about 15 new ones ready a couple of years back... then I went for a job interview where they mentioned they'd looked at my blog (fortunately not those posts!) and I realised there were potential repercussions to posting lists of abusive questions with my name attached.... maybe I need to find a way to do version 3 "anonymously"...

I like your blog. I assume you’ve not updated it because of fewer big international trips, but why not just stick up some less exotic stuff? Also, on the basis that you are often heard to accuse various people of having a crack habit, I think you ought to document your own crack session, possibly including any training benefits vs beta alanine, etc, etc...

[tomtom]

Is there one of those ticket machines, like at the butcher’s counter, in place for Mecca now?

Bouldering next to a load (several loads) of Chuffers at Birchen last weekend reminded me why I’m very happy not participating in any roped climbing....

[cheque]

Bouldering next to a load (several loads) of Chuffers at Birchen last weekend reminded me why I’m very happy not participating in any roped climbing....

  Yep, every cliff in the country’s just as busy as Birchen gets on a bank holiday. It’s a nightmare. 

[tomtom]

Bouldering next to a load (several loads) of Chuffers at Birchen last weekend reminded me why I’m very happy not participating in any roped climbing....

  Yep, every cliff in the country’s just as busy as Birchen gets on a bank holiday. It’s a nightmare. 

Not so much how busy it was (the business for those egg corn collectors ) but the general faff and stuff that goes with trad (and to a different degree sport). I like the turn up and do it - ness of bouldering.

All that carry on of multiple ropes and gear jangling. “Safe”, “slack on blue” etc etc...

I am fully aware that me straining like I’m trying to shit out a brick to get my arse 5cm off a mat on some eliminate sit start is completely ridiculous of course. But I usually do that in only my own company 😂

[spidermonkey09]

I still love trad but everytime I go the faff drives me to distraction until I force myself to chill out. I think sport climbing is fairly low maintenance with a partner you trust to use a grigri but still takes on an air of farce when you watch someone clipsticking their way up something...

[cheque]

All that carry on of multiple ropes and gear jangling. “Safe”, “slack on blue” etc etc...

  Most trad routes are even more faff on one rope though...

Except for onsight soloing all forms of climbing are faff-afflicted aren’t they? We just tolerate and embrace the types that come with the form we love the most and get more efficient at dealing with it the more regularly we do them.

[dunnyg]

Repeat soloing is pretty faff free. I was thinking bouldering is a faff the other day as I dragged two pads round Caley after work. Might have done 30 problems and still climbed less than 100m.

[user deactivated]

Good To hear you’re stickinG to the protocol

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Some thoughts.

Must do the washing up. Bin out..

And,

I agree with the spirit of this thread, of course. Try to be mindful of your behaviour at the crag, impact on other users, members of the public etc.

However, castigating people, referring to those people who don't adhere to your own norms (if they really are) as a real bunch of Cs, posting up photos of "the culprits" etc, perhaps isn't the best way to do it.

I've parked questionably (though try my hardest not to), been noisy at the crag in my youth, crapped in the bushes, dossed at crags (couldn't wait to try out my new stove/Xmas present), climbed at crags where climbing isn't allowed (several of those in the Peak).

We ALL contribute to the tensions between different visitors/users in the Peak. I think there's a tendency to raise issues like these, when individually we might be worried about losing something, while perhaps being a little blind to issues elsewhere.

It's also very easy to forget where we personally draw the line.

It's always good to raise the issues, but if there is a defensive response, then that's probably not surprising.

There are many things we can do to improve relations with the Peak Park/other users in a constructive way.