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IFSC 2019 (Read 71658 times)

Sidehaas

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#225 Re: IFSC 2019
August 21, 2019, 06:44:37 pm
...and to answer Will's question more directly,  from the way the combined scores worked out in this comp,  it seems that if you win a round in qualifiers (Ie come first out of twenty)  with the multiplicative scoring you are almost guaranteed to finish in the top 6 and hence make the final even if you come 20th in the other two disciplines. On the  other hand if you only come 2nd out of 20 in your best one then you need to do much better than 20th in one or both of the others.

teestub

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#226 Re: IFSC 2019
August 21, 2019, 07:56:37 pm
Me too. That Kazakh speed climber really impressed me. Yes he looked weak on some of the boulders compared to the top guys,  but he also (a)  topped a boulder in qualifiers that a couple of bouldering specialists failed on,  (b)  beat two lead climbers in the combined bouldering and (c)  beat two boulderers in the combined lead. These are some of the best climbers in the world - so if nothing else,  he has completely kyboshed the theory we all had that any speed climber would be useless compared to the rest at both bouldering and lead.
He also came 41st - equal with Will Bosi - in the overall men's bouldering qualifiers. He's no slouch. He deserves his combined medal.


I don't think he beat any lead climbers in the combined bouldering, he got 1 zone which was the same as Megos even though he only got a couple of goes at one problem before fucking his finger. The two guys he beat in lead (by two holds, with some slightly sketchy climbing past a bolt) also appear to be mainly boulderers?
I think the comparison with Bosi shows a bad day for him rather than Khaibullin being any cop at bouldering.

I'm not going to go through and watch again, but between him and the Miroslaw they got 1 bonus in the bouldering, I did not watch all of Khaibullin, but I did watch Miroslaw fail on the first move of all of the problems repeatedly.

Sidehaas

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#227 Re: IFSC 2019
August 21, 2019, 08:15:20 pm
He beat Ghisolfi and Ruana in the combined bouldering qualifiers round.

41st in the world bouldering championship is a really good result,  it's clearly not just Bosi having a bad day. There were other names below him who regularly crop up in World Cup semis.

teestub

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#228 Re: IFSC 2019
August 21, 2019, 09:34:58 pm
I bow to your greater comp knowledge there, as besides Stranik (who must be a bit long in the tooth now) I only recognise a few lead athlete names https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/world-competition/last-result#!comp=8253&cat=6

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#229 Re: IFSC 2019
August 21, 2019, 10:19:05 pm
His 41st in the bouldering qualifiers is a legitimately good result. It's World champs, 102 climbers competed in the round.

Same rank as Bosi, and above Yufei Pan and Tim Reuser who both have finished top 10 at boulder world cups this year, I mean it is in a different half of the draw so you could argue it's not a great comparison, but even when you look in his group 2 of the 3 people directly above him have won world cups in the last 15 months or so.

GraemeA

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#230 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 04:22:37 am
Me too. That Kazakh speed climber really impressed me. Yes he looked weak on some of the boulders compared to the top guys,  but he also (a)  topped a boulder in qualifiers that a couple of bouldering specialists failed on,  (b)  beat two lead climbers in the combined bouldering and (c)  beat two boulderers in the combined lead. These are some of the best climbers in the world - so if nothing else,  he has completely kyboshed the theory we all had that any speed climber would be useless compared to the rest at both bouldering and lead.
He also came 41st - equal with Will Bosi - in the overall men's bouldering qualifiers. He's no slouch. He deserves his combined medal.

Edit: on the other hand,  people like Tomoa are getting quite close to the speed specialists in speed now. I think he was only 0.4 seconds behind with his best run. I reckon the gaps will all close a bit more by next summer.

Rishat (the Kazakh guy) isn't really a speed specialist though, he does all 3 disciplines and has been for a fair bit. He just happens to be pretty fast!

All his results here https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php?option=com_ifsc&view=athlete&id=9567&cat=23#&cat=6

12th in the Asian Boulder Champs isn't too bad, beating Keita Dohi and the Iranian Gholmali who has had a 2 or 3 7th places in Boulder WCs. https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/world-competition#!comp=7303&cat=6
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 04:29:48 am by GraemeA »

Muenchener

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#231 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 10:26:06 am
It reminds me a bit of when the BMX and the Snowboard Cross (I think) were introduced/showcased. Favourites just seemed to get wiped out at random making it interesting - but not if you were cheering for someone...

How random is it though really? Five of the podium places went to people who by any reasonable standard are in the top six competition climbers in the world.

tomtom

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#232 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 10:43:34 am
It reminds me a bit of when the BMX and the Snowboard Cross (I think) were introduced/showcased. Favourites just seemed to get wiped out at random making it interesting - but not if you were cheering for someone...

How random is it though really? Five of the podium places went to people who by any reasonable standard are in the top six competition climbers in the world.

Or is it that there is a larger pool of potential winners?

I was just thinking out loud with my post... it’s VERY different to track and field (eg sprinting) where you expect it to be between 1-3 people - or the favourite - and that’ll be the case unless they get disqualified for false starts or fail a drug test (ooh!). Whereas wrt climbing there’s a wider field that ‘could’ win it in the three event climbing.

We need someone with some game theory to chip in here 😃 the multiplier scoring seems to drastically favour anyone who finishes first... maybe points awarded for positions (rather than the positions being the points) would allow this to be tailored a bit better...

Some scoring systems (eg tennis) are designed to amplify slight advantages and others (I think cricket is an example) tend to reduce the differences...

teestub

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#233 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 10:56:31 am
I think the scoring works well, I don’t see any issue with it favouring people who do the best in a round, Tomoa was obviously way above everyone else in terms of combined skills and this was represented well by the decent gap between his score and the next.

tomtom

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#234 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 11:15:29 am
But if you score a 1 - it favours you massively...

2 x 5 x 10 gives same result as 1 x 10 x 10 obvs... but is coming 1 and 10 really better than 2 and 5?

Muenchener

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#235 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 11:31:54 am
1-8-8 draws with 4-4-4 when multiplying, loses when adding.

Which you hink is "better" depends, I suggest, on whether

(a) You actually want a triathlon where you're genuinely looking for the best all rounder -. In which case the 4-4-4 person is clearly "better"

or ...

(b) You're running a combined format as a one-off because it's a compromise you've been forced into that you intend to get rid of asap. In which case you could certainly argue for rewarding the 1-8-8 person who at least is the best at *something*

I see us in situation (b)

teestub

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#236 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 11:32:29 am
If you ain’t first you’re last.

joel182

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#237 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 11:40:58 am
Under current rules, 1-8-8 loses to 4-4-4 since the latter placed higher in more events.

Will Hunt

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#238 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 11:46:47 am
In the Tour de France, the yellow jersey is awarded to the rider with the quickest time over the entire event, so it is possible for a rider to win it by performing consistently well each day without winning an individual stage. Nevertheless it is frowned upon (at least in the French press) for someone to wear yellow in Paris without winning at least one stage along the way. The thinking is that a worthy winner should demonstrate their dominance over the field at some point - which is difficult to do if you're having to work hard every day and you're competing for stage wins against people who are targeting specific stages for a stage win and will have hung back in the peleton for a day or two before.

Muenchener's thinking seems about right.

cheque

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#239 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 12:13:16 pm
How do they calculate decathlon and heptathlon results? Those are surely the closest equivalent.

tomtom

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#240 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 12:16:35 pm
How do they calculate decathlon and heptathlon results? Those are surely the closest equivalent.

Young get points for your performance... related to time/distance etc.. rather than position.

Danny

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#241 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 01:46:47 pm
I suspect the multiplicative scoring thing might have more to do with the politics of getting at least some speed specialist representation in the Olympics, given that ability in the other two disciplines are reasonably well correlated

highrepute

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#242 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 07:47:26 pm
I suspect the multiplicative scoring thing might have more to do with the politics of getting at least some speed specialist representation in the Olympics, given that ability in the other two disciplines are reasonably well correlated

It just preferences winners.

Olympic medal table is done on number of golds. Doesn't matter how many bronze and silver you get.

Which speed climber is going to qualify?

Danny

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#243 Re: IFSC 2019
August 22, 2019, 07:54:42 pm
I'm confused. Surely a speed climber *has* already qualified thanks to this scoring system? (Anyone fancy checking the math on that?)

finbarrr

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#244 Re: IFSC 2019
August 23, 2019, 08:11:57 am
I’m pretty sure people were body and mind shaming another Japanese 15 year old.
Let me go back and check

By the way, I love watching Ai Mori climb almost as much as I like watching Tomoa. (And her style is a little more attainable for me)


It was Tanii Natsuki ( don’t know wich is first of last name)

First hit with foto on my google :
https://www.8a.nu/forum/editorial/strange-rule-unfair-result-for-tanii
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 10:41:14 am by shark »

Durbs

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#245 Re: IFSC 2019
August 23, 2019, 09:13:56 am
Scoring etc aside, I enjoyed these combined comps - though admittedly didn't watch the speed - but I did watch the lead which I've never before engaged with and it was actually ok!

Also, I know they get some stick on here sometimes, but hats off the commentators. That was an intense set of days for them and they remained enthusiastic to the end. Quality has gone up too, nice work fellas.

joel182

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#246 Re: IFSC 2019
August 23, 2019, 12:06:05 pm
Just want to point out that there is nothing shameful about suffering from anorexia, or any eating disorder, and no one's body is something to be ashamed of.

A few climbers, like Angie Payne, have spoken powerfully about their experiences with eating disorders. Nat Berry  wrote about her experiences as a developing competition climber.

I hope that anyone who is in need of support feels able to ask for it and knows that it is nothing to be ashamed of.

bigironhorse

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#247 Re: IFSC 2019
August 23, 2019, 02:53:08 pm
Scoring etc aside, I enjoyed these combined comps - though admittedly didn't watch the speed - but I did watch the lead which I've never before engaged with and it was actually ok!

Also, I know they get some stick on here sometimes, but hats off the commentators. That was an intense set of days for them and they remained enthusiastic to the end. Quality has gone up too, nice work fellas.

Agree with this, sterling effort by the commentators.  :icon_beerchug:

Muenchener

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#248 Re: IFSC 2019
August 23, 2019, 03:18:43 pm
Charlie's latest write-up on t'other channel is good too.

finbarrr

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#249 Re: IFSC 2019
August 23, 2019, 06:00:26 pm
Just want to point out that there is nothing shameful about suffering from anorexia, or any eating disorder, and no one's body is something to be ashamed of.

A few climbers, like Angie Payne, have spoken powerfully about their experiences with eating disorders. Nat Berry  wrote about her experiences as a developing competition climber.

I hope that anyone who is in need of support feels able to ask for it and knows that it is nothing to be ashamed of.

I agree, and just want to add (though it was said earlier) that being thin does not mean having anorexia (young Adam Ondra).
Said girl could have a special metabolism, or genetics.

 

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