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Do Font grades on highballs take account of height?

Yes, and they should
39 (34.8%)
Yes, and they should not
21 (18.8%)
No, but they should
5 (4.5%)
No, and they should not
14 (12.5%)
Not sure, but they should
14 (12.5%)
Not sure, but they should not
19 (17%)

Total Members Voted: 112

Highball Grades (Read 23354 times)

Will Hunt

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#75 Re: Highball Grades
May 30, 2023, 04:35:49 pm
First there were trad grades, then there were bouldering grades, then there were highball grades, and now we need headpoint-for-a-pad-protected-ascent grades.

I think the quandary comes from the blurring of styles. It sounds like your approach is like headpointing (i.e. working it on a rope) but stops before getting to the point where you climb it with your brain turned off, and then the ascent is protected with pads and you actually take the falls, i.e highballing.

On your Instagram you say that the falls left you "bruised and battered", which might mean that this isn't a reasonable ground-up prospect? Personally if I saw a Font grade only I'd expect to be able to highball it (which, as a general rule, I think of as ground up above pads). So you might consider a split grade of E x (Font y), though I can see why that might seem unwieldy. At the very least I'd mark out any which might be long shots to ground up so people know what to come prepared for, and then give Font grades that reflect the difficulty of the climbing only - you can tell the rest of the story in the text i.e "a very on-off crux right at the top".

Happy to put the guide on Unknown Stones when you're done if you'd like.

Liamhutch89

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#76 Re: Highball Grades
May 30, 2023, 05:13:29 pm
First there were trad grades, then there were bouldering grades, then there were highball grades, and now we need headpoint-for-a-pad-protected-ascent grades.

I think the quandary comes from the blurring of styles. It sounds like your approach is like headpointing (i.e. working it on a rope) but stops before getting to the point where you climb it with your brain turned off, and then the ascent is protected with pads and you actually take the falls, i.e highballing.

On your Instagram you say that the falls left you "bruised and battered", which might mean that this isn't a reasonable ground-up prospect? Personally if I saw a Font grade only I'd expect to be able to highball it (which, as a general rule, I think of as ground up above pads). So you might consider a split grade of E x (Font y), though I can see why that might seem unwieldy. At the very least I'd mark out any which might be long shots to ground up so people know what to come prepared for, and then give Font grades that reflect the difficulty of the climbing only - you can tell the rest of the story in the text i.e "a very on-off crux right at the top".

Happy to put the guide on Unknown Stones when you're done if you'd like.

On my approach, you're correct that I stop before it's wired, but that's not through some ethical regard, it's just that I feel I have them as wired as i'm going to get them in a reasonable timeframe. Similarly, there won't be many lowball problems a couple of grades below my max that I can do every time.

Better climbers than me would surely be able to climb it ground up. In fact one very good climber who visits this forum has already been asking about it, so I might suggest he tries to improve on the style! It's not that much higher than the great flake, it's just harder and the landing is not quite as flat, but still not that bad. More than the 3 pads I had would certainly help.

I may take you up on the offer to host it, but your mate might not be happy  ;)

Kingy

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#77 Re: Highball Grades
May 30, 2023, 05:49:02 pm
Generally, one grade seems to be added to the normal boulder grade for highball grades as far as I can make out. E.g. Billy Ridal just did an insta post about a slab out in Magic Wood that Anna Hazelnutt did that he repeated reckoned would be 7C without the height factor but which was fair at 7C+ due to being highball

teestub

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#78 Re: Highball Grades
May 30, 2023, 07:12:02 pm
I'm thinking about this right now because i'm working on a guide for the bouldering at Hawkcliffe (around 30 new problems!) and there are a few highballs, which unfortunately will need a grade for the guide to be useful.



Have the barriers and 'no access' signs mentioned on UKC https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/hawkcliffe-1248/#overview disappeared again now then? Good news. As access is a hot topic at the mo, the full access statement from the YMC guide should probably be included in any new guides for the crag

Quote
The crag is on private land with no public right of way. However, in 1997 the BMC negotiated an access agreement for climbers by kind permission of the landowner. Take care not to upset the owner of the land above the crag. Shooting activities often take place here, so exercise caution. Dogs are not allowed. Create a minimum of disturbance to wildlife. Keep gardening to a minimum. Leave no litter.

Back on the topic I thing the PG/R/X or similar (Bishop guide uses 0-3 fluttering hearts) is a useful addition to highball grades to work out which ones might be ok ground up, and which ones would more than likely benefit from the headpoint approach. I guess in the UK, particularly on the grit, unless you're lucky enough to turn up soon after someone has done it, you're probably going to need to throw a rope down to clean it anyway, so you may as well have a look!

Liamhutch89

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#79 Re: Highball Grades
May 30, 2023, 10:49:22 pm
There are no signs but there are barriers. I don't know who owns the land but I spoke to the farmer over the road and he doesn't care as long as we park on the grass verge at the same side of the road as the woods and not on his turn in. I've been around 10 times and never had any trouble or even seen anyone. I just try to be discreet when jumping the waist height wall, waiting for no cars to be passing. 

Liamhutch89

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#80 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 02:24:53 pm
Well the retroclaim is in and allegedly it's E4 6b  :o This seems unlikely considering I've onsighted E5's above pads which were trivial in comparison.

I was leaning towards font 7B+ from a pure difficulty standpoint. If the original grade is correct then I am very bad at climbing but at least my ignorance gave me the same experience as a true first ascent on this one ;D

spidermonkey09

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#81 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 02:42:56 pm
Whats the route name if its already been claimed? Might a bomber cam/wire make it feel considerably less nails? Also possible something has come off.

Liamhutch89

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#82 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 03:06:57 pm
Whats the route name if its already been claimed? Might a bomber cam/wire make it feel considerably less nails? Also possible something has come off.

It's The Dawning. There probably is gear but that wouldn't change the technical difficulty of it.

Desperate to try Charlie Don't Surf E8 up there now to compare as this felt harder than other E6's / E7's!

Tom de Gay

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#83 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 03:48:00 pm
Desperate to try Charlie Don't Surf E8 up there now to compare as this felt harder than other E6's / E7's!

Yikes, super bold. Wouldn't be surprised if the hardest moves at the crag were on Visions in Tan – haven't tried it, just going on reputations! Buzz Caner might also be a useful comparator for 7B+, and it stays cool in the rift.

Liamhutch89

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#84 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 04:08:57 pm
Desperate to try Charlie Don't Surf E8 up there now to compare as this felt harder than other E6's / E7's!

Yikes, super bold. Wouldn't be surprised if the hardest moves at the crag were on Visions in Tan – haven't tried it, just going on reputations! Buzz Caner might also be a useful comparator for 7B+, and it stays cool in the rift.

Buzz Caner looks good! I'm not sure which one Visions in Tan is yet as I've only been going off UKC's lacking descriptions. I'll try and borrow a guide. However, I'd be surprised if it has the hardest moves at the crag - I've been working on a new boulder which feels absolutely miles harder than anything I've ever tried and probably needs someone stronger than me to do it. 8B maybe? Any takers? I've also added other new boulders up to around 7C+ so far.

Any idea how to get on top of Charlie Don't Surf or Buzz Caner to put a rope down them? 

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#85 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 04:57:15 pm
Aye I had a play on visions in tan and I couldn't conceive of some moves unless it moves out from the chimney later than I was trying.

And yeah the crux of Charlie is a lot easier than 7B+

Tom de Gay

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#86 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 05:50:00 pm
I'm not sure which one Visions in Tan is yet as I've only been going off UKC's lacking descriptions. I'll try and borrow a guide. However, I'd be surprised if it has the hardest moves at the crag - I've been working on a new boulder which feels absolutely miles harder than anything I've ever tried and probably needs someone stronger than me to do it. 8B maybe? Any takers? I've also added other new boulders up to around 7C+ so far.

Any idea how to get on top of Charlie Don't Surf or Buzz Caner to put a rope down them?

Visions in Tan goes up the wall left of Charlie, starting in the chimney then breaking out right at the pegs. Uptown and Nik at Work on here have done it and might be able to divulge some of their mysterious vertical ways… Don't recall anything special about access to the top of these routes.

Dan Honneyman unearthed some bouldering below the main crag back in the early '00s, after some serious gardening efforts. Probably never recorded and reclaimed by the jungle.

Felix14

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#87 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 06:07:36 pm
Ok yeah if it moves right by the first peg it's definitely pretty hard!

dunnyg

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#88 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 06:36:11 pm
Had a play ages ago, and according to my notes there is a nails move between 2nd and 3rd peg. I remember some poor undercuts and that's about it. Always fancied it because it seemed safe as houses, but don't think I've ever been strong enough to climb safe e7 (unsurprisingly).


Will Hunt

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#89 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 06:42:53 pm
It's in the hardback guide (3 stars) and the latest edition (1 hollow star!) so not a retroclaim tbf. I'm out now but when I checked earlier I think it said runners in the break and a fast belayer. I've checked with Mark Radtke and he says he climbed it the same way as Liam, with Jerry Peel and Dave Barton repeating it the same day it was first done.

Conditions must surely make a difference to how hard it feels. If you've got the fan out it can barely be good, let alone mint.

Edge of Darkness at Earl is E5 6c and mooted at 7B+/C. That's a crux in the lower section to an easier finish that looks protectable. If Rad thought the gear was in range on the hardest moves then that would have depressed the survival grade.

I'd be amazed if Charlie was 7B+ as that's supposed to be really dangerous. High 6s or low 7s you'd think?

Visions in Tan is a Crome route isn't it? Not a man known for being shit at rock climbing!

Felix14

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#90 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 06:53:28 pm
I reckon 6C at the most for Charlie

It is bold but I could never decide how bold.

Felt like a very bold but not too hard e6 to the peg, and then crux after, but was very unsure about the reliability of the peg, it looks fairly good.

But was scared of unwisely convincing myself it was fine.

Will Hunt

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#91 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 06:58:49 pm
I reckon 6C at the most for Charlie

It is bold but I could never decide how bold.

Felt like a very bold but not too hard e6 to the peg, and then crux after, but was very unsure about the reliability of the peg, it looks fairly good.

But was scared of unwisely convincing myself it was fine.

Is that the same peg that you use on Driveby? That's been on the list for a couple of years but if the peg is shit I might change my mind.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 07:05:38 pm by Will Hunt »

mark20

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#92 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 07:09:16 pm
I reckon 6C at the most for Charlie

It is bold but I could never decide how bold.

Felt like a very bold but not too hard e6 to the peg, and then crux after, but was very unsure about the reliability of the peg, it looks fairly good.

But was scared of unwisely convincing myself it was fine.

Is that the same peg that you use on Driveby? That's been on the list for a couple of years but if the peg is shit I might change my mind.

Yes the same peg, but you still have the gear in the corner still (just about) protecting you on Driveby at that point.

Liamhutch89

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#93 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 07:58:45 pm
Is it ethically wrong to change an old peg with a newer better one? (I know nothing about trad)

teestub

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#94 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 08:35:54 pm
Well the retroclaim is in and allegedly it's E4 6b  :o This seems unlikely considering I've onsighted E5's above pads which were trivial in comparison.

I was leaning towards font 7B+ from a pure difficulty standpoint. If the original grade is correct then I am very bad at climbing but at least my ignorance gave me the same experience as a true first ascent on this one ;D

I think there's some bits at the cliff that are E4 6C and font 7B so not a million miles off. Think West Side Story originally got e4 6c too for example?

Liamhutch89

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#95 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 09:37:15 pm
Well the retroclaim is in and allegedly it's E4 6b  :o This seems unlikely considering I've onsighted E5's above pads which were trivial in comparison.

I was leaning towards font 7B+ from a pure difficulty standpoint. If the original grade is correct then I am very bad at climbing but at least my ignorance gave me the same experience as a true first ascent on this one ;D

I think there's some bits at the cliff that are E4 6C and font 7B so not a million miles off. Think West Side Story originally got e4 6c too for example?

Trad grades make bouldering grades look like a fundamental constant of the universe.

The only trad ish thing i've done at the Cliff is Orchrist E5 6b and that's trivial in comparison to The Dawning and a similar height. Massive Attack E5 6b at Crookrise also trivial (but very fun). The Great Flake E6 6b is piss. The Waiting Line at Caley has been touted as E7 6c and I thought that was easier too. The only high thing I've done that felt almost as hard was Red Alfa E6 6c at Windgate Nick (one of the best lines i've ever done). I'd like to have a go on Simba's Pride at Burbage as that looks pretty easy on videos! Also very keen for MYXOMOP.

Edit - I just looked in my logbook and the only other E4 6b i've done is Rick's Rock which I flashed on one of my first days bouldering on rock around 4 years ago. I now climb more than a number grade harder (font) and this E4 6b took 2 and a half sessions and still felt really hard!

PS. I take back my 'retroclaim' comment, it's just me not owning a guidebook.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 09:42:32 pm by Liamhutch89 »

cheque

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#96 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 10:22:46 pm
Think West Side Story originally got e4 6c too for example?

E4 7a

nik at work

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#97 Re: Highball Grades
June 02, 2023, 11:51:42 pm
I'm not sure which one Visions in Tan is yet as I've only been going off UKC's lacking descriptions. I'll try and borrow a guide. However, I'd be surprised if it has the hardest moves at the crag - I've been working on a new boulder which feels absolutely miles harder than anything I've ever tried and probably needs someone stronger than me to do it. 8B maybe? Any takers? I've also added other new boulders up to around 7C+ so far.

Any idea how to get on top of Charlie Don't Surf or Buzz Caner to put a rope down them?

Visions in Tan goes up the wall left of Charlie, starting in the chimney then breaking out right at the pegs. Uptown and Nik at Work on here have done it and might be able to divulge some of their mysterious vertical ways… Don't recall anything special about access to the top of these routes.

Dan Honneyman unearthed some bouldering below the main crag back in the early '00s, after some serious gardening efforts. Probably never recorded and reclaimed by the jungle.

Uptown did it, I didn’t. Afraid I don’t remember much about it but seem to recall the crux involved a powerful move getting up into an undercut that I couldn’t get to work. Of course that might be a completely inaccurate memory, it’s my age etc…


spidermonkey09

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#98 Re: Highball Grades
June 03, 2023, 12:24:28 am
 No real surprise trad grades don't make sense when applied to boulder problems. They were an imperfect solution when first given to West Side etc back then. The tech grades from 6b up are very variable. Needless to say they make a lot more sense with a harness on, trying to fiddle in a marginal wire to keep you off a (padless!) deck. Stuff like Rick's rock shouldn't have a trad grade now as it can be bouldered out with a normal number of pads (2/3). Stuff that needs loads of pads (adrenaline rush/psycho/marrow bone jelly) should retain the trad grade.

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#99 Re: Highball Grades
June 03, 2023, 08:19:38 pm
Desperate to try Charlie Don't Surf E8 up there now to compare as this felt harder than other E6's / E7's!

Yikes, super bold. Wouldn't be surprised if the hardest moves at the crag were on Visions in Tan – haven't tried it, just going on reputations! Buzz Caner might also be a useful comparator for 7B+, and it stays cool in the rift.

Buzz Caner looks good! I'm not sure which one Visions in Tan is yet as I've only been going off UKC's lacking descriptions. I'll try and borrow a guide. However, I'd be surprised if it has the hardest moves at the crag - I've been working on a new boulder which feels absolutely miles harder than anything I've ever tried and probably needs someone stronger than me to do it. 8B maybe? Any takers? I've also added other new boulders up to around 7C+ so far.

Any idea how to get on top of Charlie Don't Surf or Buzz Caner to put a rope down them?


Setting up kit at the top is pretty simple from what i recall from when I did them.
Seem to remember the odd small tree at on top with some other pro thrown in.
You'll probably need to give the top a very good sweep mind. Gets very leafy.

 

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