[monkoffunk]

Question for tomtom - or anyone else - what are you doing for your hip flexibility? Some means of objectively measuring progress would be motivating. I have my own ideas but I’m curious as to what others are doing. 80% of hip flexibility exercises claimed to be relevant for climbing are complete pish (almost as laughably non-specific as the so-called core training promoted by some well-known people who should know better). For example: the ubiquitous downward facing dog. How can anyone keep a straight face and claim this has any benefit for their climbing?

I’d say that’s part of a package of more global flexibility. With little expertise I would imagine that you don’t want to simiply focus on a single stretch specific to a specific move (say a high step), you want some all round mobility.

Since doing yoga for a few months I’ve found a little effort has had quite a notable impact on how easy I find it to stick a toe or heel up high. Down dog, cobbler, pigeon are just a few things I do for all round lower limb flexibility.

[yetix]

Going to contortion classes 1-2 times a week for a few months led to the biggest improvements in flexibility for me. I ended up being able to pancake (legs completely flat and the rest of me folded forward quite well) however I did end up hurting my groin shortly after this...

[sdm]

Question for tomtom - or anyone else - what are you doing for your hip flexibility? Some means of objectively measuring progress would be motivating. I have my own ideas but I’m curious as to what others are doing. 80% of hip flexibility exercises claimed to be relevant for climbing are complete pish (almost as laughably non-specific as the so-called core training promoted by some well-known people who should know better). For example: the ubiquitous downward facing dog. How can anyone keep a straight face and claim this has any benefit for their climbing?

Downward dog is going to be hitting the shoulders and hamstrings more than hips for most climbers.

Some yoga poses that are more useful for hip flexibility:
Pigeon
Lizard
Horse
Frog
Fire Log
Bound Angle
Malasana squat
Skandasana
Figure 4
Cow Face
Warrior 2
Low lunge or crescent lunge
Happy Baby
Camel
Bridge

The ones nearer the top are generally more specific to climbing than the ones nearer the bottom.

There are variants of most of them to make them easier if necessary or to make them harder and/or include more of a strength element.

You want to be including strength work as well as stretching: bendy weak muscles will lead to injury problems.

[tomtom]

Duncan - got some ideas/thoughts an will post later but presently have a poorly toddler on my lap mainlining episodes of paw patrol....

But for a 49 year old inflexible punter I’ve made some quite rapid gains...

[SA Chris]

whats the one called when you sit with your soles of your feet pressed together, and push down your knees with your elbows? That one. Our yoga teacher only uses the sanskrit names...

[sdm]

That's bound angle pose.

[tomtom]

OK - I've been doing some hip stretches for the past 6 weeks or so. Basically I stand facing the back of a chair (for support) and spread my legs as wide as they comfortably go. Then pressing on my toes I try and squat down on one leg - then over to the other and back. Kind of like this



But maybe with my legs further apart. I then over the course of the stretches let my legs stretch/slip further apart.

My logic for this is that I'm (a) crap and inflexible when reaching footholds out wide and this helps and (b) by pushing up from the squad using my toes I'm mimicing the action of climbing (e.g. pushing through the toe) rather than just stretching.

Quite amazingly (for me) I've managed to extend my range of stretch by 25-30 cm during this period (6 weeks) and in climbing my precision in placing feet wide and (most importantly) my confidence in plonking a foot wide and using it has incresed greatly. For me specifically, on the Rib - where you plonk your left foot out on the slopey edge early on - this used to feel a real stretch and not any use. When I was last on it 2-3 weeks ago - it felt great. Out with Dolly yesterday at Frodo, I was ploking my feet wider than I usually would - not sure if Dolly noticed but it seemed unusual for my climbing and seemed to help.

BTW - pretty much all stretching I've ever done  - has done nothing. My hamstrings are so tight I can only reach my shins and downward dogs are a nightmare. This has never improved no matter what I've tried.

As a final point/Q - my 'spread' index has now reached +1". Like the ape index its the difference between how far I can spread my legs apart front on - and my height. Being 6'2" its now c. 6'3" toe to toe (new record last night..). I wonder what other peoples is?

(note all of the above is just my experimentation/thoughts/messing about. I've no idea what I'm really doing but I think its made a difference)

[Fiend]

TT: +2" when from cold. I could improve that for sure.

[tomtom]

TT: +2" when from cold. I could improve that for sure.

(thumbs up emoticon)

[duncan]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

To clarify, I’m looking for two or three stretches to improve climbing performance. I already spend 20-30 minutes most days doing auxiliary exercises - mainly to minimise the chance of another shoulder dislocation and reduce the frequency of tweaks - and I don’t want to spend a lot more time on this. I’m very good at sticking to an exercise programme but it has to be simple, rational, targeted, and measurable.

I’d like to be able to get my hips closer to the rock, especially for high steps, like an 80s French climber and bridge wider to climb routes like this:



I don’t believe flexibility has big impact on injury prevention. There is good evidence to support this  and, personally, I have had shoulder problems for ~40 years and everyone I have ever seen has said I already have quite flexible shoulders.

.

I’d say that’s part of a package of more global flexibility. With little expertise I would imagine that you don’t want to simiply focus on a single stretch specific to a specific move (say a high step), you want some all round mobility.

Since doing yoga for a few months I’ve found a little effort has had quite a notable impact on how easy I find it to stick a toe or heel up high. Down dog, cobbler, pigeon are just a few things I do for all round lower limb flexibility.

Good to hear flexibility can change in a realistic timescale. I’ll look up the suggestions. Agree with downward dog for shoulders but I think there are better options and I can’t see how hamstring flexibility is going to influence my climbing to any significant degree.

Going to contortion classes 1-2 times a week for a few months led to the biggest improvements in flexibility for me. I ended up being able to pancake (legs completely flat and the rest of me folded forward quite well) however I did end up hurting my groin shortly after this...

What is a contortion class? And what did you do there? A quick search suggests a pancake is something like doing the splits lying on your front. I’m so far off this it’s not true...

OK - I've been doing some hip stretches for the past 6 weeks or so. Basically I stand facing the back of a chair (for support) and spread my legs as wide as they comfortably go. Then pressing on my toes I try and squat down on one leg - then over to the other and back.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm after: directly performance-related and quantifiable. I have a spread index of -6 

[Muenchener]

Agree with downward dog for shoulders but I think there are better options

What I’ve been doing lately that’s helping my chronically poor shoulder mobility is broomstick dislocate failures. (Need a better name)

I get my broomstick, grasp it with my hands just a bit too narrow to be able to actually do a full dislocate. Meaning anything less than the full length of the stick In my case. Then take it back as far as I can until – in my case at least – the pecs are the limiting factor stopping me going any further. Then stay there for a while.

With these I can get a better pec stretch, in a safer and more controlled position, than the usual against the wall pec stretch that tends to just aggravate my impingement issues. An even better whole body mobility exercise is then doing overhead squats in that shoulder position.

[yetix]

Essentially a class for getting more flexible. Normally involves partnering up for long stretches which the partner will force you to go deeper and deeper into over a range of time (3-10mins maybe?)

The ones I go to are mostly filled with people wanting to be more flexible for pole or aerial

Definitely had the biggest impact on my flexibility though

[Coops_13]

So surprised this topic has stayed on point and away from filthy jokes....

Where's Doylo when you need him?

[monkoffunk]

If I was picking only three for bridging and high steps, I would do tomtoms one:


This one:


And this one:

I’d be very careful with that though, if you have dodgy knees at all, and start basic as in the video.

[tomtom]

Colleague of mine was picking up his Tennis playing son from an event at some sporting centre of excellence somewhere near London (no idea where) - but in the large room next to where he was waiting the Jamaican sprinting team were being stretched by their physio.

He has quite a funny tale of how how he popped his head around the door and they were being stretched really hard - physio using full body weight - and lots of West Indian banter.

[cheque]

All this stretching info is great- thanks all. My hip flexibility is woeful nowadays and it affects my climbing noticeably. Unfortunately pain limits my ability to some of these stretches (that pigeon one is not going to happen any time soon!) but I’ve made progress by just doing what my other half calls the “bear stretch” (you attempt to lie on your front like this) and your body weight pushes your hips out) which is gentle enough. Should hopefully be able to move on to others with time.

Interestingly I was told the other day by someone whose mate works for Lattice that their data shows that hip flexibility is as much of an indicator of how hard someone can climb as finger strength. I’ve certainly watched people cruise routes I’ve struggled on and realised that the ease with which they move is due to having their centre of gravity much closer to the wall.

[Muenchener]

Guido Köstermeyer says much the same thing in his training book. How high you can place one foot while keeping the other close to the wall is in his battery of self-tests

[slab_happy]

To clarify, I’m looking for two or three stretches to improve climbing performance.

FWIW, in "9 out of 10 Climbers" Dave Mac says:

"Sit on the floor with legs wide apart and lean forward to feel the stretch in the back and inside of the legs. Then sit against a wall with the legs pulled up and the soles of your feet touching each other. Use your arms to push your knees towards the floor to feel the inner thighs and hips stretch. Unless you have an additional flexibility problem, these two simple stretches might be all you need to do. Because the workload is low, you'll be able to clock up enough time on these two stretches that matter the most during your normal climbing or training sessions."

A.k.a. wide-legged forwards bend (which is "pancake" in its deepest form) and bound angle pose.

I personally do a lot of yoga for general maintenance (and am a big fan of Cossack squats and some of the other stuff being discussed in here), but if you had to pick just two stretches to get maximum bang for your buck for climbing purposes, specifically for high steps, turnout and bridging, you could probably do a lot worse than those.

Also you can sit on the floor and do them while watching TV.

[saltbeef]

Long rambling post alert

To provide a counter argument. I have found yoga and passive stretching to provide minimal progress in terms of gaining flexibility. I have always been really inflexible from doing shitloads of running as a youth but over the last year this has massively improved.

What have I done differently? “Mobility work “. Wade through YouTube and Instagram for this stuff. Typically it involves moving in and out of positions and holding at the end (for 10-30secobds), or loaded mobility (strength training to get increased range of motion).

What do I have to back this up . Science and anecdote.

I think someone commented earlier you don’t want weak floppy muscles you want to be able to stick your foot up high and stand on it. Same goes for your shoulders. Mobile but strong.

Paradoxically I have recently started doing some more passive stretching but usually using PNF style stuff. This is because although I think my mobility has improved, I “think “ that a bit of passive stretching reduces resting tone (and I’m hoping this will increase gainz).

So what am I doing- 2 sessions a week ideally on something (usually hip/middle splits /pancake that is strength oriented) then just general mobility work every day. Also look up compression strength gymnasts use (for stuff like press handstand)

Good starts I think are
https://gmb.io
Ido portal (twat but a nimble twat)

Loads of free knowledge and easily understood
Not as fuckng boring as stretching and yields results.
Also view it as training and measure your progress as it’s slow but does happen

(Your exercise when not in Sanskrit yoga TomTom is a Cossack squat and the other one is tailor pose )

[user deactivated]

......and I was imagining you down the local yoga studio sorting out that flatulence mate.... never hold onto gas, my gran used to say.

[saltbeef]

I’m zen as fuck

[tomtom]

I’m zen as fuck

Cheers for the post SB. Kinda agree with your main post. In climbing it’s not just about getting your foot somewhere it’s about being able to load it and maybe drive off it... which I why I felt the Cossack squats helped. A bit...

[slab_happy]

I think someone commented earlier you don’t want weak floppy muscles you want to be able to stick your foot up high and stand on it. Same goes for your shoulders. Mobile but strong.

Fair point; I was going to mention something about working on "active flexibility"/mobility as well as passive, but then the caffeine levels in my bloodstream dropped too low.

Passive flexibility is how far you can lift your foot up with your hand, active is how far you can lift it with your leg muscles, basically.

I do think there's a role for passive stretching, but range of motion is no practical use unless you can control it (and having muscular strength at your end range can actually increase your passive flexibility, since a lot of this stuff seems to be about convincing your nervous system that it's safe to allow motion to that range).

One strategy is doing stuff like "hand-to-big-toe pose" (a hamstring stretch), standing or lying down, where you're using your hand or a strap to help pull your leg high, doing the passive stretch for a bit -- then letting go, and seeing if/how long you can hold your leg in place with your own muscles.

[steveri]

As a sample of one, I know high steps and topping out are much clumsier coming back to climbing after a long break, and running/cycling too much. The voice in my head keeps shouting 'knee!' when I hash up yet another finish. Trying to address.

[jwi]

Following the specificity principle I'd think that active stretching is better to increase the active range of motion and passive stretching better for increasing the passive range of motion. I'm not sure that this in line with my own experience, or with common practice in sports and activities that require a big active range of motion; in classical dance e.g. they do a lot of (very brutal) passive stretching.

To this end I spent a fruitless hour on scholar.google trying to find any studies where the active range was evaluated after passive vs active stretching; the only thing I learned is that PNF stretching is worse than normal stretching on every measure. The other thing I learned is that basically no one has published a paper about the long term effects of stretching. Most studies investigate stretching on short term (less than a few months) or ultra short term (less than a month).

So if someone could point me to a peer reviewed article where it is shown that active stretching is better than passive for increasing the active range of motion I'd be very grateful.