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International women's day (Read 6575 times)

Stu Littlefair

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#150 Re: International women's day
April 02, 2019, 02:18:45 pm
 :agree:

(looks at logbook)

 :oops:

petejh

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#151 Re: International women's day
April 03, 2019, 08:57:26 am

Do you believe that social forces like this can exert can influence on people?

Hi Andy, good question. Absolutely, I believe social forces have the power to exert influence on people. And where there are obvious unequal negative social forces I believe that should be challenged.

A few people on here (Stu, Nao etc.) have pointed out that social barriers are a matter of perception and I completely agree. Everyone has a unique perception of what constitutes a barrier to them. That said I do think you can look at things 'on average' to get a gauge. You have to do this otherwise the world couldn't function.


In return here's a question for you, first a bit of context.

It's widely accepted that negative expectations have the power to influence people.

For context, here's one small example, given by Cordelia Fine from the discussion earlier in this thread:
''If, for example, men on average score higher on a maths test or a mental rotation (spatial) test, then simply by telling women ahead of time that women on average score higher on such tests can not only lead women to perform better than they usually do, but can make the sex difference vanish.''

and here's SBC's reply:
...I strongly agree that social variables are important and doubtless play key roles in shaping our behaviour. Indeed, the kinds of effects Fine highlights can be thought of as commonsense demonstrations that if you make someone feel more confident, they do better on a test; or that if you change a personís expectations of how they will perform, their performance is influenced by their expectations.

I'd suggest one of the most powerful social forces is negative expectations.

Hey.. I can think of a superb way to instil powerful negative expectations in a certain group of people - construct a narrative that has as its underlying premise the theory that women have fewer possibilities than men to shape the future of climbing. Bingo, climb out of that hole women!

Do you believe negative expectations can influence people?  :)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 09:08:37 am by petejh »

slab_happy

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#152 Re: International women's day
April 03, 2019, 11:06:40 am
If you want an example of "negative expectations", then promoting the view that women's brains just aren't naturally adapted to new-routing (and that any women who do new routes must have more "masculine" brains than normal) strikes me as a prime example.

Hey.. I can think of a superb way to instil powerful negative expectations in a certain group of people - construct a narrative that has as its underlying premise the theory that women have fewer possibilities than men to shape the future of climbing. Bingo, climb out of that hole women!

Ah yes, if we just pretend that discrimination and sexism isn't there, it'll magically go away! It's all in your head, women!

Notice how Fine's example is about beliefs about how women perform? In which case, it'd be equivalent to pointing out (truthfully) that there are plenty of women who put up new routes, and paying attention to significant new routes put up by women. Which would be likely to help encourage more new routing by women.

Pointing out that women face discrimination and sexism doesn't equate to claiming that women are inherently incapable of doing maths or new routes or whatever; in fact, it's usually the opposite, pointing out that women are more capable that we are sometimes allowed/encouraged to be.

Also, I thought you thought Cordelia Fine was sullying the pure objectivity of cognitive neuroscience by dragging politics into it? If you now think she's an authority, maybe you should read her book.

reeve

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#153 Re: International women's day
April 03, 2019, 12:15:49 pm
In return here's a question for you, first a bit of context.

It's widely accepted that negative expectations have the power to influence people.
...
Do you believe negative expectations can influence people?  :)

Slab Happy has already answered this really, but as you directed the question to me I'll put in my piece too.

We are all subject to our own implicit biases, that is, expectations, assumptions, ways of seeing the world and biases in how we see the world. Particularly with something so ambiguous as the social world. Becoming aware of these can help us to mitigate against them ourselves. So, if someone becomes aware that they have an expectation which is holding them back, they can try to change (or ignore) these thoughts, and go ahead and try hard irrespective of them.

A couple of examples. Say I'm doing CBT with a client (for the benefit of those who are not Pete and so don't know, I'm training as a clinical psychologist),  and alongside the client we come to the conclusion that they have a tendency to catastrophise about future events. By identifying this I am not saying "yes you're right, everything will go wrong next week". Instead, it's giving the client the chance to notice themselves doing this (their implicit bias as mentioned above), and to think or behave differently, in a way which works better for them.
Second example - some of my own implicit bias. In this thread about para-climbing in the IFSC Slab Happy (again!  :) ) asked "Do you think they ever even considered moving the able-bodied comp?". I'm a bit embarrassed to say that this never even occurred to me that they had this as an option. Some of my own implicit bias. By having this pointed out, I'm better able to challenge my own tendencies. I am not more likely to stay stuck with my my implicit bias.

People highlighting the ways in which women (or anyone, but this thread is about women) may be held back is a way of deconstructing these barriers, rather than unwittingly colluding with them.

slab_happy

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#154 Re: International women's day
April 03, 2019, 01:34:34 pm
I really like the CBT example here, that's great.

Second example - some of my own implicit bias. In this thread about para-climbing in the IFSC Slab Happy (again!  :) ) asked "Do you think they ever even considered moving the able-bodied comp?". I'm a bit embarrassed to say that this never even occurred to me that they had this as an option. Some of my own implicit bias.

To be honest, it took a fair while for it to occur to me, and I identify as disabled!

It just suddenly went ping in my head when danm was giving reasons why it was better to move the paraclimbing comp rather than the able-bodied comp, and I thought "yeah, but I bet they didn't actually ever consider moving the able-bodied comp, did they?"

Maybe I'm maligning the IFSC terribly here and they did! But the point is that it is really easy to see it in terms of "should the para-climbing comp be moved or not?" and never think for a second that moving the able-bodied comp would be also be an option.

Implicit bias is like the water we swim in; we all absorb it, and having implicit biases doesn't mean we're bad people, it means it's in the fucking water, and it takes work to try to identify and undo those biases.

andy popp

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#155 Re: International women's day
April 03, 2019, 01:52:46 pm
it takes work to try to identify and undo those biases.

This.

petejh

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#156 Re: International women's day
April 04, 2019, 03:48:01 pm
In return here's a question for you, first a bit of context.

It's widely accepted that negative expectations have the power to influence people.
...
Do you believe negative expectations can influence people?  :)

A couple of examples.
..

Both of those of examples are from the point of view of the person 'with' the negative expectations. I was asking do you think negative expectations have the power to influence people. As in - people perform and behave differently depending on what pre-exisitng expectations there are of them. No need to answer because I think it's accepted that they do.



Quote from: reeve
People highlighting the ways in which women may be held back is a way of deconstructing these barriers, rather than unwittingly colluding with them.

I agree with that. And if you believe in that principle then please explain why you (not Andy in particular) don't believe the same principle must apply for:
People highlighting areas in which they think women are not held back is a way of reinforcing the equality of possibilities in these areas, rather than unwittingly colluding in an attempt to deny barriers exist.

It seems to be a matter of perspective and perceived intent, again.


As many have pointed out, if someone perceives something to be a certain way then that's their lived experience. Hard to argue they're 'wrong'. But it's far from generally accepted that a majority of women feel like they have fewer possibilities within climbing. Some do some don't.


Think I'm out! Thanks for the good points everyone.


mrjonathanr

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SA Chris

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#158 Re: International women's day
April 11, 2019, 11:50:03 am
Good read apart from;

Quote
she is now the most successful British climber in history.

competition climber surely?

T_B

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#159 Re: International women's day
April 11, 2019, 12:01:13 pm
Good read apart from;

Quote
she is now the most successful British climber in history.

competition climber surely?

Pretty sure she hasn't conquered Everest?

SA Chris

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#160 Re: International women's day
April 11, 2019, 12:14:46 pm
Not when i last looked. Or climbed the hardest sport routes in the world at the time....

Oldmanmatt

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#161 Re: International women's day
April 11, 2019, 01:35:38 pm
Not when i last looked. Or climbed the hardest sport routes in the world at the time....

You know the general public couldnít give a flying fark about any of those things? Everest is ancient history, hard climbing is esoteric and niche; medals and championships, they can understand.
Pretty sure she knows who she is, regardless of how a mainstream media article describes her.


shark

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#162 Re: International women's day
April 17, 2019, 03:22:18 pm
Natalie Berry has just posted up a thoughtful essay on harassment of (predominantly) female climbing athletes called Climbers Against Dick Pics - Athletes & Social Media Abuse

tomtom

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#163 Re: International women's day
April 17, 2019, 03:44:48 pm
Great post Natalie.

spidermonkey09

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#164 Re: International women's day
April 17, 2019, 03:48:50 pm
Yep, brilliant. Worth dedicating 15 minutes to.