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International women's day (Read 30075 times)

tomtom

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#125 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 01:28:46 pm
This thread reads a bit like I’m not sexist but, yes you are cos, I’m not sexist but.....

Yup.

Teaboy

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#126 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 04:11:35 pm
Pete, your refusal to even contemplate the possibility that there are barriers to female participation that you as a man either cannot see or cannot understand really says it all.

Is it any wonder so few women post here?

I think this post is a bit 'Westminster bubble'. Of course there are barriers to entry barriers to entry for women but they occur way before a woman sees the inside of a climbing wall or logs on to UKB and the idea that there are specific climbing ones caused by the climbing community is, in my view, nonsense. The barriers are the result of women frequently being left as sole carer for children (or parents) and as a result being poorer, its the result of them facing patriarchal attitudes in their communities outside of climbing etc. I always raise an eyebrow reading reports about women's climbing events breaking down barriers etc. when most attendees are already well travelled, well educated, from relatively privileged background, childless or with supportive partners, from second or third generation recreational outdoor people, etc. etc. I know there are women climbing who don't fit this stereotype but if someone has already overcome social conditioning, childcare issues, time issues and monetary problems to go to a wall they would pretty disdainful of someone describing the lack of female representation on UKB as a barrier! In fact they would probably find climbing a pretty welcoming environment compared to others they'd experienced.

As for the idea that walls/\training areas are intimidating to women, well guess what? They are intimidating to men as well. The wall I go to has a team of very strong young (mostly female) climbers and as nearly 50 year old punter I feel self conscious flailing around but that's life. Some people are self conscious walking into pubs, training areas, work, anywhere and it has nothing to do with gender.

There is no doubt lots to be done to help women get into recreation but I'm with Pete on this.

slab_happy

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#127 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 04:33:55 pm
I have read this topic with interest, quietly, as I always do with ukb... Probably other women do the same. Not entirely sure why?

I definitely lurked for a while before I first posted, but I grew up in the era when that was considered good internet etiquette anyway, to get a sense of the context somewhere before joining in, so no idea if that's a gender thing.

Wonder if we could get more lurking women to come out of the wallpaper ...

slab_happy

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#128 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 04:57:49 pm
Damn, I thought this thread had stopped after Matt's amazing post; I didn't post a reply I had drafted then because some respectful silence seemed more appropriate than me trying to have a slapfight about Simon Baron-Cohen.

(Also I had to go and climb some things.)

For example you say you know girls who get teased for the muscles gained from climbing. For every teased girl there is a teased nerdy boy, who doesn't like football but loves climbing. Or did male bullying stop?

The nerdy boy who hates football gets into climbing, and he's socially rewarded for it, because it's something he can be good at and it's an "extreme", macho-sounding sport. The nerdy girl gets into climbing -- and she's socially punished for it because ewww, look at her arms, she looks like a guy, who'd want to fuck her.

And from that you're inferring that there aren't social barriers for women in climbing?

If your point is that both women and men get socially penalized for stepping outside the barriers of what's deemed acceptable for their gender roles, then hi, yes, patriarchy hurts men too, thanks for noticing what the feminist movement has been pointing out for a good forty years at this point.

Any of those women can walk into the 'male dominated' training area and even out the ratio. Nobody is going to stop you,

Out of interest, what would you accept as constituting a "social barrier"?

You don't seem to accept that anything might be a barrier unless women are being physically prevented from doing it (or, I guess, legally prevented from doing it).

slab_happy

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#129 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 04:58:59 pm
I know there are women climbing who don't fit this stereotype but if someone has already overcome social conditioning, childcare issues, time issues and monetary problems to go to a wall they would pretty disdainful of someone describing the lack of female representation on UKB as a barrier! In fact they would probably find climbing a pretty welcoming environment compared to others they'd experienced.

Okay, I know that most of the female input on this thread (apart from me and NaoB) has been from women who choose not to participate on UKB but whose opinions are being relayed via male partners/friends.

But this is the first time we've heard the opinions of a hypothetical woman being relayed by a guy imagining what they would be.

the idea that there are specific climbing ones caused by the climbing community is, in my view, nonsense

I don't think anyone's claimed that the climbing community is uniquely sexist or more sexist than the rest of society or that it has special barriers which don't exist elsewhere -- just that it doesn't exist in a magic bubble insulated from the rest of society, and that as a result, the climbing community contains some of the same assumptions, prejudices and barriers that exist elsewhere.

As a card-carrying angry feminist, I actually do think that the climbing community's relatively good and that climbing's a relatively (and increasingly) equal playing field compared to many other fields. I've recommended it as an awesome thing for women to get into for that reason!

But we're not in a magic bubble, so of course climbing (and who even gets to become involved in climbing in the first place) is shaped by some of the social prejudices from the wider society. We are not immune.

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#130 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 05:35:25 pm


But this is the first time we've heard the opinions of a hypothetical woman being relayed by a guy imagining what they would be.

That reminds me of something...   https:   //www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgwZjB0cPQ4

tomtom

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#131 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 05:39:21 pm
But this is the first time we've heard the opinions of a hypothetical woman being relayed by a guy imagining what they would be.

Post of the decade that. Superb. Chapeau!

That reminds me of something...   



(fixed the link foryou jr)

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#132 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 06:18:34 pm

But this is the first time we've heard the opinions of a hypothetical woman being relayed by a guy imagining what they would be.

Less hypothetical more an amalgam as I didn't want to go into too much personal detail but I can see that that won't wash.

Former partner, struggling for money, two young kids. Liked the idea of going climbing but there was no way she could have managed it for child care, expense, opportunity issues. Point being the barriers are there but they are higher than sexism within the climbing community and in our little middle class bubble we lose sight of that. As it was she did go climbing and enjoyed it but found the participants 'snobby' rather than sexist.

My wife also liked the idea of climbing but never went until we got together, partially due to opportunity, again single parent and also ethnically Chinese so not really any UK role models (we've been together 10 years, I guess things have changed even in that time). Since then she's climbed lots, enjoyed it, never encountered sexism that has bothered her. Interestingly (or not) she did join a women's climbing group based out of one of the walls here in the NW and found it very unwelcoming, however enjoyed going out with an old school climbing club.

The only other person I have discussed this with at length is my long time climbing partner who is of the view that the notion of sexism in climbing is over played (paraphrasing and possible poor choice of words but can't think how better to phrase it).

So three more to add to the list of women unaffected by sexism in climbing, not sure if it adds to the debate felt I needed to justify my earlier words and it seems second hand relaying of opinion is acceptable.


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#133 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 07:01:41 pm
It seems to me that
So three more to add to the list of women unaffected by sexism in climbing, not sure if it adds to the debate felt I needed to justify my earlier words and it seems second hand relaying of opinion is acceptable.
I always raise an eyebrow reading reports about women's climbing events breaking down barriers etc. when most attendees are already well travelled, well educated, from relatively privileged background, childless or with supportive partners, from second or third generation recreational outdoor people, etc. etc. I know there are women climbing who don't fit this stereotype but if someone has already overcome social conditioning, childcare issues, time issues and monetary problems to go to a wall they would pretty disdainful of someone describing the lack of female representation on UKB as a barrier! In fact they would probably find climbing a pretty welcoming environment compared to others they'd experienced.

I think you might be confusing the magnitude of the barriers people are describing. Yes, outside of climbing there are greater social injustices and widely held outmoded beliefs which preclude some sections of society from having the same opportunities as others and which they should be entitled to. That, on the whole, isn't the case in climbing (from my perspective). That doesn't mean that some women's experience of other barriers (the uninvited and unwanted sexualised attention my gf described experiencing at a wall for example [I have never experienced - probably too ugly]) is not real and does not create a genuine, although not immediately obvious barrier. Just because climbing is probably ahead of other areas of life when it comes to these things doesn't mean that we should all stop caring about it, because there are clearly still barriers.

In fact, your own example of your ethnically Chinese wife having no role models strikes me as a particularly good example. There are far fewer female climbers sponsored or gaining media attention (and when they do the routes they have done stand a fair chance of being downgraded). It's interesting that you cite this as a barrier for your wife ethnically, whilst ignoring that the exact same reason could easily be cited as a barrier for someone due to their gender.

As an aside, it's only a year since this gem: https://medium.com/@georgieabel/sasha-digulian-joe-kinder-and-the-reframing-of-normal-b0e70d933642 which accuses the whole of the rock climbing world as supporting and promoting a 'rape culture'. I actually think things like this have done more to damage people's willingness to engage with these kind of debates than they have helped their cause, despite there being some grains of truth amongst the chuff.

slab_happy

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#134 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 07:15:47 pm
Less hypothetical more an amalgam as I didn't want to go into too much personal detail but I can see that that won't wash.

Okay, thanks for elaborating further.

Point being the barriers are there but they are higher than sexism within the climbing community and in our little middle class bubble we lose sight of that.

But one of the barriers you're talking about is "women frequently being left as sole carer for children (or parents) and as a result being poorer, its the result of them facing patriarchal attitudes in their communities outside of climbing etc". 

That's not a result of sexism within the climbing community specifically, but it's certainly the result of sexism, and shapes women's participation (or not) in climbing.

Also it's not like you have to pick sexism OR class/poverty issues and decide that only one of them is real and important. They can both be real! They even intersect! (And women being stuck as sole or primary childcarers would be a prime example of that intersection.)

I feel like there's a weird disjuncture here, where some people are saying "Sexism has an effect on whether and how women get into climbing, and can affect things like whether women get into new routing, because the climbing world isn't magically immune to social attitudes" and other people are hearing "The climbing world is uniquely sexist and bad and male climbers are sexist and terrible" and are reacting against that.

slab_happy

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#135 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 07:46:14 pm
I asked my partner to contribute, because she has a different view, but she refuses to have anything to do with UKB anymore (Pollylolly I think is her user name). She calls it UKBollocks, because it’s all cock swinging, confrontational, balls.

I was having an interesting discussion with a (male) climbing partner about why there are so few women posting on UKB, given that both of us felt there's possibly less casual sexism here in some ways than on UKC.

(This thread notwithstanding; I'm really rather heartened that there are a bunch of other dudes arguing with petejh.)

Neither of us could come up with a theory we found convincing. There's definitely a certain style, and it's one women tend not to be socialized in as much (or to be as invested in), but I don't think that can be all of it.

Maybe because it's got a rep for being focused on training and therefore for people who are really strong? I know plenty of women who train a lot, but we're sometimes shyer about our achievements and efforts, and worse at believing that we belong with the Serious Climbers if we're not crushing like Shauna.

I mentioned during the course of this conversation that I'd posted in the YYFY thread when I got Bananafingers and that people had been sincerely pleased for me -- and it's not like I literally thought anyone was going to go "Fuck off out of here with your pathetic classic 6a, this thread is for Font 8a and upwards only!", but it still took a tiny bit of nerve for me to do it.

And that's nothing to do with people's actual responses, which, as I said, were entirely positive; that's the internalized stuff I'm bringing with me in the first place.

petejh

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#136 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 09:22:21 pm
Before I reply to some of that. For the millionth and one time.. if you're going to accuse me of sexism first try to understand that what I'm questioning here is the premise that lies behind this statement:
''A day as good as any to reflect on what needs to be done in order for women to have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing.''

I.e. the premise that:
'women, right now, have fewer possibilities than men do to shape the future of climbing.'

I do not believe we live in an equal society outside of climbing. I do not believe climbing sits in a magic bubble that protects people who climb from the effects of the outside world and what goes on there.

I do believe women have exactly the same possibilities as men do, to shape the future of climbing.

I do believe the culture within climbing is an unusually egalitarian one remarkably lacking in prejudice and discrimination.

I don't believe much good comes from unquestionably accepting things. I'm unable to at least. This leads me to contemplate (yes contemplate Andy P, imagine..) a statement like the one about women's possibilities and question whether it's accurate or even useful to use the argument - that because much of the world suffers from discrimination, it also applies within climbing.

A little context from me, seeing as we're all getting cosy with each other. I was for a short but happy time partners with one of the very, very few female UIAGM mountain guides in this country - at that time I think we're talking single digits. I naturally was interested in her experience of navigating the *extremely* male environment of international mountain guides and what sexism or prejudice she thought she encountered. Her replies that she didn't think she encountered any sexism or prejudice at all actually surprised me.

A previous partner who was also on the (Canadian) mountain guides scheme once persuaded me to put a good word in for her to get her a job working in rope access...
If you think everyday life is unequal and sexist, try being a woman in the construction industry in redneck Canada. She got the job and I basically spent the next year getting into serious arguments with her 'supervisors' on the worksite after hearing about the latest inappropriate remark they'd made to her. That was her close colleagues.. 

Two other longish term partners, both climbers (bit of trend here..). Neither I recall ever mentioning any negative experiences of prejudice or barriers within the climbing world. Hey maybe they did and I'm just such a stone-hearted dead to the world of emotion automaton that I blindsided it.

That isn't meant as a 'whataboutery' to say hey chin up love things could be worse (though things *could* always be worse). It's just to illustrate that I do have some first-hand experience and insight of seeing and dealing with sexism and prejudice in the workplace; or its surprising lack of.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 09:31:54 pm by petejh »

petejh

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#137 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 09:27:38 pm
Slabhappy I'm glad you asked what I consider a social barrier. This seems about right:
Differences (inequalities),in gender, ethnicity, race, religion, health or socioeconomic status, between individuals or groups that prevent them from achieving or accomplishing their goals, or deny their opportunity to access resources and to advance their interests.

I don't see any significant barriers within the sphere of climbing. I do see barriers in the wider world outside of climbing.  No, I'm not so naive to think these don't have an effect on people who end up becoming climbers but I'm not even trying to argue that.
 
What I'm questioning is the assumption that many seem to unquestionably have, that there are barriers *within climbing* which are gender-specific and which mean women have fewer opportunities to shape its future. So far nobody has come up with anything of much substance *within climbing*.

As usual in debates I feel that I'm probably in agreement with a lot and that I'm probably being too specific; and people are taking my stance to mean I'm saying sexism doesn't exist, or that it doesn't affect other areas.

I think I'm making this point because, as I think Andy R said somewhere earlier (not suggesting in agreement with my point), I don't think it does anyone any favours in the long run to make the right arguments in the wrong places.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 09:45:29 pm by petejh »

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#138 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 09:35:08 pm
I thought it might be useful to post three real things that happened to me and my partner. The first with my now wife.

We were in Costa Blanca and and we told someone at the place we were staying we were going to wild side. Upon hearing this he asked my wife what she did there while he's climbing. The assumption being she wasn't good enough to climb there. Strange because her guns are bigger than mine. I'm seem to recall we referred to him as knobhead after that, although not to his face, which I wish we had.

I spoke to a women once, get me, about the women's climbing symposium. She said she hadn't gone before because she didn't understand the need for a women specific symposium. But there were women there who were basically too scared to climb in front of men.

My wife reports regularly that she feels she gets comments on her appearance while climbing that she feels men wouldn't get. These comment make her feel awkward and self conscious.

reeve

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#139 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 10:57:03 pm
Before I reply to some of that. For the millionth and one time.. if you're going to accuse me of sexism first try to understand that...

I think I'm making this point because, as I think Andy R said somewhere earlier (not suggesting in agreement with my point), I don't think it does anyone any favours in the long run to make the right arguments in the wrong places.

Presumably that's refering to me bringing up the 'climbing supports a rape culture' chestnut. "Right arguments in the wrong places" isn't quite what I meant, rather 1. I'm actually pleased that you're continuing to be so vocal, even though I disagree with a lot of what you've written and think you keep missing what many people are posting; and 2. statements like Andy P made re. 'if you don't get it then you're part of the problem' actually does nothing to push the conversation forwards - it closes it down. For example, I remember reading or posting (not sure now) about something similar on FB ages back and someone pulled out a similar line, which completely shut down any conversation, when actually there were good points being made by both protagonists.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head Pete when you said that you often get stuck in debates by being too specific. Well almost, it seems to me that you're stuck in this debate because where everyone else sees social barriers as things that are encountered by women (and others, of course), you are adamant that individual women are capable of overcoming them:

Quote
Quote from: petejh on March 30, 2019, 10:27:36 am
Any of those women can walk into the 'male dominated' training area and even out the ratio. Nobody is going to stop you,

so you don't define them as barriers. I think (certainly speaking for myself) that this has been confused for you denying their existence or power. I certainly don't remember you acknowledging the power that these things can have though so I can see how this would happen. I suspect this is the source of comments suggesting that you don't get it or that you are sexist. Do you believe that social forces like this can exert can influence on people?

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#140 Re: International women's day
April 01, 2019, 11:52:14 pm
So 6 pages in and still, despite a polite second request, no-one has answered jwi’s intial question!!

No examples of literature written by women about their agency in sport (there’s actually plenty with a quick google).

Also despite plenty of healthyish debate about whether disadvantage exists, not a single suggestion about what could be done in order for women to have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing??

I tell a lie, the only suggestion I can find is this one from Pete, which is nail on head for me:

live and let live, treat others as equals, show a bit of consideration and treat people how you would like to be treated. Nothing dramatic just everyday courtesy.

Having re-read all, I can’t find a single comment that would damn Pete as sexist. I politely disagree with him about brexit, but in both debates he has remained absolutely level headed, and has earned my respect for standing his ground in a civilised manner under fire..

I was going to post more of a more humorous bent, but my wife has now read some of the thread and has become really quite upset at the patronising nature of the dominant tone that women are an oppressed group that need to be given a leg up. She is finding this message much more disempowering than an occasional inappropriate comment from a passing git..

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#141 Re: International women's day
April 02, 2019, 08:12:33 am
In general terms and maybe not specifically to climbing, does she think equality is reached simply through removing barriers such that they are? I’m aware of the problem of patronising people and suggesting that they would not be able to reach a goal/job/status or whatever without a friendly white male hand reaching down to pull them up, and I completely accept that point.

At the same time it is undoubtedly true that more subtle (or not) prejudices and barriers still do exist across our direct society even after you remove some of the most obvious ones. So I have to also be aware of my own privilege as a member of the white, male middle class, where the opportunities that have been so abundant for me have certainly made my life much more easy and comfortable than if I didn’t belong to those groups. Is it enough then to aim to remove barriers? Or does society in general (and not just benevolent patronising white men) need to do something more active given that as yet we simply have not levelled the playing field?

Edit: this is a general observation, I have followed this thread mostly but haven’t read every post in absolute detail.

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#142 Re: International women's day
April 02, 2019, 08:26:24 am
So 6 pages in and still, despite a polite second request, no-one has answered jwi’s intial question!!

No examples of literature written by women about their agency in sport (there’s actually plenty with a quick google).

Also despite plenty of healthyish debate about whether disadvantage exists, not a single suggestion about what could be done in order for women to have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing??

I tell a lie, the only suggestion I can find is this one from Pete, which is nail on head for me:

live and let live, treat others as equals, show a bit of consideration and treat people how you would like to be treated. Nothing dramatic just everyday courtesy.

Having re-read all, I can’t find a single comment that would damn Pete as sexist. I politely disagree with him about brexit, but in both debates he has remained absolutely level headed, and has earned my respect for standing his ground in a civilised manner under fire..

I was going to post more of a more humorous bent, but my wife has now read some of the thread and has become really quite upset at the patronising nature of the dominant tone that women are an oppressed group that need to be given a leg up. She is finding this message much more disempowering than an occasional inappropriate comment from a passing git..

So 6 pages in and still, despite a polite second request, no-one has answered jwi’s intial question!!

No examples of literature written by women about their agency in sport (there’s actually plenty with a quick google).

Also despite plenty of healthyish debate about whether disadvantage exists, not a single suggestion about what could be done in order for women to have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing??

I tell a lie, the only suggestion I can find is this one from Pete, which is nail on head for me:

live and let live, treat others as equals, show a bit of consideration and treat people how you would like to be treated. Nothing dramatic just everyday courtesy.

Having re-read all, I can’t find a single comment that would damn Pete as sexist. I politely disagree with him about brexit, but in both debates he has remained absolutely level headed, and has earned my respect for standing his ground in a civilised manner under fire..

I was going to post more of a more humorous bent, but my wife has now read some of the thread and has become really quite upset at the patronising nature of the dominant tone that women are an oppressed group that need to be given a leg up. She is finding this message much more disempowering than an occasional inappropriate comment from a passing git..


Done?

I thought that was both implicit and rather obvious.

I confess I actually meant to highlight Pete’s comment about live and let live, too; but as is the way with these things, I never remember everything I intended to write andtwo lines in to typing I’ve thought of something else and...

I would have put it differently, something like “actually we should stop being such wankers to each other”.

But I pretty much said that on page one:


Running the BMC?



That has to be, at least moderately, influential...

Edit:

Too obscure again, sorry.

I mean, maybe if we (men) gave them credit for what they are already doing, have done and have been doing since the dawn of the endeavour; they wouldn’t feel as disenfranchised?

Not as if their contribution, to date, has been minor or peripheral is it?

Write a list of accomplished, influential, female climbers and it’ll give you blisters on your typing finger (I only use one, normal /people can replace that with “fingers”).

I don’t think I’ve “savaged” Pete for political incorrectness, I just argue against “Neuroscience” as the basis for any gender differences in the Climbing world. I agreed there might be biological differences, just that their significance was probably less than being stated. If you want a biological reason, reproductive biology is asfar as you need look for impediment to just about everything. Males being equipped with a “Fire and Forget” tactical system, compared to the female, more strategic “Guided missile” type system, that can take circa 18 years+ to discharge...

Measles, Father-in-Law is a Surgeon Captain (RN, Ret), his wife (the step mum) Surgeon Cdr (RN), Sister-in-law is a Wildcat pilot (LtCdr RN) now a Test Pilot. None of them, male or female, are representative of “normal”, “typical” or “common”. They are exceptional people who have achieved things of uncommon difficulty, within a hard, demanding and unforgiving environment. Basing any assessment of the wider population on such outliers, seems a might unreasonable.

(I’m sure I mentioned before, but we’re all a bit posh. Family gatherings are like a rerun of “Four Weddings and a Funeral”, without the humour).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 08:45:19 am by Oldmanmatt »

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#143 Re: International women's day
April 02, 2019, 11:35:26 am
When I first started climbing (25 years ago!!) I was actually the ONLY female who regularly climbed at our local wall. At the legendary Barden Boulder Bash comps, there wasn't even a female category cos I was the only girl who competed. It took years before I realised that I was even allowed to lead stuff because the 'boys' always did the decision-making. Things have changed a massive amount in that time, for the better obviously.

What is interesting to me is that, looking back, I encountered tons of barriers to climbing properly but I never viewed them that way, it has almost been a case of water off a duck's back. So my instinctive reaction if people ask me about barriers to females in the climbing world is to say that there aren't any, we can do whatever we want to do, and that is sort of true. However, when I analyse it more deeply and look at it from other women's perspectives, there are many things about climbing that are still intimidating to SOME, depending on their situation. For instance, I have coached at the WCS and also run a few 'Ladies Night' events at climbing walls and you would be amazed at how many attendees truly find it liberating to climb with other women, they are usually too timid or uncomfortable to get involved when they are 'on their own' with a bunch of guys at the wall.

I am aware that there are tons of women who are very sensitive about sexist slurs and who are looking for battles to fight about their rights. I am at the other end of the spectrum - I honestly don't notice much in the way of sexism in climbing. But that doesn't mean it isn't there! What I'm trying to get at is that you can't judge this debate on the response of one or two women, because we may not be at all representative. It would be easy for me to say to other women who feel strongly that there are barriers to their opportunities in climbing that they should just ignore them and get on with it, and stop being so sensitive. Yet it is clear that my viewpoint is maybe a bit weird and probably 'wrong'.

With a bit of a stretch of my imagination, I reckon these are some of the 'barriers' that other women perceive:
- Guys assuming that girls will be weak and rubbish (eg Highrepute's Costa Blanca experience) and then in some cases taking this further by permanently taking the lead in a climbing relationship. It can easily become self-fulfilling prophecy where a lass is never given the opportunity to push herself because they have fallen into these prejudiced roles.
- Sexist comments that make them feel intimidated and then reticent about putting themselves in that environment again. I think this is nearly stamped out now, but there are definitely areas of the country or even specific venues that still have hints of this mentality.
- Hot jets of man foam! If loads of testosterone spewing men are together, they can seem like a pack of animals - on their own they may be lovely and considerate, but the more you fit in a small space, the more laddy it becomes. At least, that's how it looks from the outside to a timid lamb of a woman (or man, this is applicable to anyone excluded from the pack of course).
- Downgrading after a first female ascent. Look, this still happens a lot, you can call it coincidence but let's face it, that's a lot of coincidences.... Fortunately, most of the women pushing boundaries of top end ascents are of the personality type to be able to shrug off this stuff. It still hurts though, and may well put some off trying hard routes.
- Lots of social factors that aren't climbing specific, but nevertheless affect our hobby. As has been mentioned before, women often end up with a lot of time consuming responsibilities such as looking after a family or a home, and even in relationships where both parties are climbers it can end up that the female has less time free to devote to climbing.

Just to make this clear, this is not a list of my opinions or my experiences exactly, but I have observed these things affecting other women. Are they real barriers or just perceived? Either way, the balance of equality in climbing is improving all the time and heading in the right direction, maybe in another 25 years it won't even be a matter for debate.  :shrug:

Stu Littlefair

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#144 Re: International women's day
April 02, 2019, 12:55:07 pm
Couldn't agree more with all of that post NaoB, and the nub is (as others have posted as well) that one person's barrier may not be noticed by someone else. It may be readily overcome with enough effort. But it doesn't mean it isn't there...

- Downgrading after a first female ascent. Look, this still happens a lot, you can call it coincidence but let's face it, that's a lot of coincidences.... Fortunately, most of the women pushing boundaries of top end ascents are of the personality type to be able to shrug off this stuff. It still hurts though, and may well put some off trying hard routes.

I wanted to comment on this one example, for two reasons. One is that it appears to be the most overtly sexist of all the examples you give. The second is it's something I've done in the past, so I'm a bit sensitive about it!

Obviously this is a side issue to the general thread; but I think the explanation for this is more innocent that you hint at. Suppose Climber X (Male) ticks an 8c, which is well known to be soft and possibly due a downgrade. This ascent gets discussed at the crag, and amongst mates. Probably some jerk says the route needs downgrading. Climber Y (Female) ticks the same route, and it's national or international news. Probably some jerk says on the internet it needs downgrading. The only difference is that the same discussions are more publicly visible. Outrage ensues...

I totally get how this is uncomfortable and difficult for women and how it might be a barrier for some. I just don't think it's sexist behaviour.

andy popp

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#145 Re: International women's day
April 02, 2019, 01:01:42 pm
Great post NaoB, thank you.

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#146 Re: International women's day
April 02, 2019, 02:06:55 pm
Hi Stu,

I agree with you, I know that these downgrades happen because often a 'first female ascent' shines a light on a grade that has already been debated. It isn't that suddenly climbers think "hey, she's done it, it must be easy". What irks though is that if a climb needs a downgrade, people mess about and don't make it official, then it turns into a bigger issue if a woman repeats it. Like you say, it's not necessarily sexism, it's more likely that folk just want to keep the higher grade on their logbooks  ;)

Stu Littlefair

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#147 Re: International women's day
April 02, 2019, 02:18:45 pm
 :agree:

(looks at logbook)

 :oops:

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#148 Re: International women's day
April 03, 2019, 08:57:26 am

Do you believe that social forces like this can exert can influence on people?

Hi Andy, good question. Absolutely, I believe social forces have the power to exert influence on people. And where there are obvious unequal negative social forces I believe that should be challenged.

A few people on here (Stu, Nao etc.) have pointed out that social barriers are a matter of perception and I completely agree. Everyone has a unique perception of what constitutes a barrier to them. That said I do think you can look at things 'on average' to get a gauge. You have to do this otherwise the world couldn't function.


In return here's a question for you, first a bit of context.

It's widely accepted that negative expectations have the power to influence people.

For context, here's one small example, given by Cordelia Fine from the discussion earlier in this thread:
''If, for example, men on average score higher on a maths test or a mental rotation (spatial) test, then simply by telling women ahead of time that women on average score higher on such tests can not only lead women to perform better than they usually do, but can make the sex difference vanish.''

and here's SBC's reply:
...I strongly agree that social variables are important and doubtless play key roles in shaping our behaviour. Indeed, the kinds of effects Fine highlights can be thought of as commonsense demonstrations that if you make someone feel more confident, they do better on a test; or that if you change a person’s expectations of how they will perform, their performance is influenced by their expectations.

I'd suggest one of the most powerful social forces is negative expectations.

Hey.. I can think of a superb way to instil powerful negative expectations in a certain group of people - construct a narrative that has as its underlying premise the theory that women have fewer possibilities than men to shape the future of climbing. Bingo, climb out of that hole women!

Do you believe negative expectations can influence people?  :)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 09:08:37 am by petejh »

slab_happy

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#149 Re: International women's day
April 03, 2019, 11:06:40 am
If you want an example of "negative expectations", then promoting the view that women's brains just aren't naturally adapted to new-routing (and that any women who do new routes must have more "masculine" brains than normal) strikes me as a prime example.

Hey.. I can think of a superb way to instil powerful negative expectations in a certain group of people - construct a narrative that has as its underlying premise the theory that women have fewer possibilities than men to shape the future of climbing. Bingo, climb out of that hole women!

Ah yes, if we just pretend that discrimination and sexism isn't there, it'll magically go away! It's all in your head, women!

Notice how Fine's example is about beliefs about how women perform? In which case, it'd be equivalent to pointing out (truthfully) that there are plenty of women who put up new routes, and paying attention to significant new routes put up by women. Which would be likely to help encourage more new routing by women.

Pointing out that women face discrimination and sexism doesn't equate to claiming that women are inherently incapable of doing maths or new routes or whatever; in fact, it's usually the opposite, pointing out that women are more capable that we are sometimes allowed/encouraged to be.

Also, I thought you thought Cordelia Fine was sullying the pure objectivity of cognitive neuroscience by dragging politics into it? If you now think she's an authority, maybe you should read her book.

 

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