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International women's day (Read 30074 times)

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petejh

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#76 Re: International women's day
March 18, 2019, 03:53:53 pm
Just getting around to catching up on this thread.

This is what I think... it's possible it may be a very slight factor but more likely it's to do with the fact less women climb and the reasons why less women climb. I think that there are social barriers that exist that make harder for women to get into climbing (not necessarily caused by climbers but by wider society as well). I think this has obviously improved a lot and we're seeing more women climbing inside. But there still is not parity so we still have a way to go and barriers still exist. I think that the same barriers that might stop someone climbing in the first place might also stop a climber getting into development.

I honestly struggle to understand what social barrier exists anymore that's a barrier to women more than men. That doesn't mean there aren't any, I just can't think of any. On my last few visits to two different indoor walls in N.Wales this week I was interested to look around and estimate the ratio of women to men. Honestly the ratio was near 50/50 - at most it might have been 60/40 men/women. Hopefully this ratio will emerge outdoors on crags and boulders. It hasn't yet but as you say there is time for it to trickle through. If it doesn't, then that suggests there is a factor that makes women less attracted or motivated to climbing outdoors than men (I don't think this is true, just that there must be an explanation for a difference); and onward the same for new routing if the ratio doesn't equalise.

.. the reason I think this is a unhelpful explanation is because it absolves everyone of responsibility to change the status quo. It also denies that there are barriers to women getting involved because its something innate in women rather external factors.

I disagree with this interpretation. It isn't controversial to acknowledge that there are male/female biological differences that have an effect, especially in sports. Differences in muscle mass an obvious example. Differences in hormones another pertinent one. If there are differences on average in the way a male's/female's amygdala functions - the evidence suggests this is correct - then that's just a biological fact the same as muscle mass is. It needn't mean anything is behind a barrier - it all comes down to whether or not you're motivated. The key point about all this is 'motivation', because that's the manifestion of a drive. If you're a woman and you're motivated to smash out new routes outdoors then there's nothing whatsoever that I see that should stop you from doing that. That to me is more empowering than looking for straw men arguments - haha literally! - to fight against to explain a difference in numbers of male to female new routers.

I'm interested about the numbers of female climbers. I would guess I see 1 in 10 climbers are female when I'm out bouldering in peak, at my most generous estimates. Are the numbers better than this in NW that you observe? I'm asking because numbers seems a factor for your explanation.
See above


also, I'm interested that you can't think of any social factors that may make it harder for women to get into the development game.  Could you try and think of some? I'll start with one... there are no women role models putting up new problems in NW to emulate.

When does a social factor become a self-fulfilling prophecy?


If you have the inherent drives required of new routing outdoors then you'll have the required motivation. If you have the required motivation then there is no social barrier that I can think of that should stop you following your drive. Male or female.


edit: typos
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:10:35 pm by petejh »

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#77 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 10:41:47 am
So I was just reading the BMC Peak Area Newsletter, and funnily enough, the Climbing News section mentions the "interesting-looking bits and bobs" that Rachel Briggs has been finding at Burbage North:

https://www.instagram.com/newascents/

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#78 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 10:58:51 am

Mrs T_B has got into developing new stuff. I asked her what attracts her to it and they are the same reasons why most people do new stuff.

There are no barriers to women in climbing so as participant increases via indoor walls, so will women's influence. Maybe the Olympics will cause a boom like running had in the '70s? I can see climbing evolving in a similar way to track/road/trail/fell/mountain running. Fell running (or racing at least) still has a greater number of men doing it than women. Some folk do all, others focus in one or two areas. It's all running.


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#79 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 11:10:48 am

I honestly struggle to understand what social barrier exists anymore that's a barrier to women more than men. That doesn't mean there aren't any


The key point about all this is 'motivation', because that's the manifestion of a drive. If you're a woman and you're motivated to smash out new routes outdoors then there's nothing whatsoever that I see that should stop you from doing that.


If you have the inherent drives required of new routing outdoors then you'll have the required motivation. If you have the required motivation then there is no social barrier that I can think of that should stop you following your drive. Male or female.


With respect: it's frequently very hard to notice or appreciate social barriers if you're not in the group that's affected by them. They can be subtle but pervasive and still powerful.

Even the assumption that a woman who does new routing is a weird anomaly who probably has a "male brain" -- that's a teeny little social barrier, all by itself.

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#80 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 11:25:38 am
Rather than trying to explain the nature of social barriers, how about just cutting to the chase and stating what social barriers you think exist.

I'm assuming I can't be the barrier that's been preventing all these women from establishing new routes to date?

BTW it's an anomaly for a man to establish new routes too, as pointed out elsewhere on this thread and as is obvious in reality. That fact doesn't stop those men who chose to establish new routes..

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#81 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 11:36:44 am
So I was just reading the BMC Peak Area Newsletter, and funnily enough, the Climbing News section mentions the "interesting-looking bits and bobs" that Rachel Briggs has been finding at Burbage North:

https://www.instagram.com/newascents/

Assume that's T_B's trouble and strife.

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#82 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 11:50:01 am

Assume that's T_B's trouble and strife.

New lower-grade problems at Burble North, good stuff! I will definitely be checking some of those out, I think.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 12:05:39 pm by slab_happy »

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#83 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 08:35:56 pm
I'm assuming I can't be the barrier that's been preventing all these women from establishing new routes to date?

No, but if you're expressing a more widely held attitude -- that new routing is such a "guy thing" that  it's a bit weird if a woman does it (and requires explanations about how her brain might be "male" in some way) -- then that kind of attitude can certainly help discourage people.

And yes, you're right that some people can and do push past social barriers, which is why I expect to see more women new-routing, especially as those barriers get flattened.

But attitudes and expectations and stereotypes have an impact on what people do, and it's foolish to pretend otherwise.

BTW it's an anomaly for a man to establish new routes too, as pointed out elsewhere on this thread and as is obvious in reality. That fact doesn't stop those men who chose to establish new routes..

No, it's a (relative) rarity for men to establish new routes, not an anomaly. There's no shortage of male new-routing role models, and no-one reacts to a man doing a new route by suggesting that he has a "female brain".

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#84 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 09:37:56 pm
I'm assuming I can't be the barrier that's been preventing all these women from establishing new routes to date?

No, but if you're expressing a more widely held attitude -- that new routing is such a "guy thing" that  it's a bit weird if a woman does it (and requires explanations about how her brain might be "male" in some way) -- then that kind of attitude can certainly help discourage people.

And yes, you're right that some people can and do push past social barriers, which is why I expect to see more women new-routing, especially as those barriers get flattened.

You keep stating that there are social barriers in climbing. But I don't accept there are any barriers. If you could give some convincing evidence I might be convinced.. But you still haven't given a concrete example of a social barrier which is preventing women from new routing.

And you seem to be labouring under the misunderstanding that I'm expressing the view that I think new routing 'is a guy thing'. I'm not expressing any such view. I doubt other posters on this thread think I'm trying to say that either. My response to any female going out new routing would be the same simple response I expect it would be from the vast majority of climbers - 'nice one'.
It's almost as if you're actively seeking to construct a social barrier to crash against, to prove there is a social barrier. I mentioned self-fulfilling prophecy in one of my previous posts..

I'm not saying new routing is a guy thing - I'm simply pointing out what everybody knows, that guys do mostly all the new routes, and pondering what the reasons are for that. Seeing as I'm entirely unconvinced that there are any legitimate social barriers in climbing, I therefore look at other reasons. It might be down purely to a numbers thing, but if so then that leads me to question why the large number of females climbing indoors hasn't, yet, translated to outdoors new routing. Maybe they will, we'll see.

But if it's not a numbers thing (I'm not convinced) then I can't help but wonder what? I know from experience what new routing is like, and what sort of mindset/motivation it requires - it's a solitary, niche, obsessive and slightly different from the norm type of climbing activity. And I'm a bit of a layperson geek and have for a long time been fascinated by brain science, psychology and how people tick. And I'm aware there are, if you accept scientific consensus, clear differences in male/females amygdala and other brain regions - a result of which are differences in typical male/female drives. That to me has more than a ring of possibility to it - certainly more ring of truth than some undefined unspecified social barrier that many people in climbing think doesn't exist.

But that doesn't preclude any female from doing anything. We're just talking bout averages here. Plenty of possibility in climbing  - what with its freedom to do as you please - for anyone who has the motivation to do whatever they wish.

So none of this comes from an origin of thinking - 'what, xyz? That's a guy thing'. It comes from a position of curiosity and looking at the evidence.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 09:55:26 pm by petejh »

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#85 Re: International women's day
March 19, 2019, 10:22:48 pm
I wrote a long reply to Petes earlier post where he asked Slabs to “name specific” impediments (or similar).
Then deleted it.
It’s quite hard to put the reply in context without laying out our entire lives here at OMM HQ.
So, in brief...
Life sucks right now. It’s stressful. That lead to some pretty heavy arguments. Over the weekend, we had our car broken in to and my daughter poured boiling water over her foot (yep, the real deal. Hours in A&E, debriding on Gas and air, morphine and gel dressings etc).
There’s a pending court case hanging over us.
And...
The wanker that murdered the father of two of my kids, is up for parole (apparently “life” means 10 years) and they and Mrs OMM have had to write “impact statements” and she was supposed to attend his hearing to read it to the board (couldn’t do it, in the end, not sit in the room with him and try to speak. So it will go ahead without her).
And some other complicated shite.

But, mainly, our biggest problem is my son.

You see, he’s probably Autistic, but in that high functioning way that makes it hard to diagnose. There is some extremely challenging behaviour, that I’d rather not detail, but has driven us to breaking point and we’ve called for outside help.

It all prompted some rather deep conversations and analysis, in that post blazing row sort of way.

It also brought to light, how many expectations there are, of Mrs OMM, the role she’s expected to play and the things she’s expected to forego, in order to be “mother” (even to a child that’s not actually hers).

These expectations and assumptions, come from the “professionals” supposedly planning our parenting strategies, from the school, from her own mother.
Without exception, all of those mentioned there, are female.
It’s a lot of little things (she’s expected to take time off work to deal with this, they were shocked that I said I would, for instance), that add up to a serious mill stone, chained around her neck, of peer judgement and pressure; that is eye opening to witness.

I mean, this post doesn’t even come close to relaying all the little links in that chain, that in truth I only began to notice, these last few years.
And, for shame, that’s more to do with being the father of a teenage girl, who wants to pursue a “male” career and a younger girl obsessed with playing football and reaching the age where she has to leave her team, because boys and girls are not allowed to play together after age 12 (now there’s a misogynistic cabal of total wankers (The Junior FA)).
And,also, because I quit my career, to be a (at first) a single parent and dropped into this female world of “single parent”. I was usually the only man in the play park. As a widower, I was a rarity in the various support groups that were filled with widows (Mrs OMM was one of them). I heard so many things, realised so many things.
Do you understand how many women have been raped? I fucking didn’t! I actually thought it was rare, that most men are basically good and it’s just a few bad seeds and...

Then you sit in some support group session, with all these women who have finally got up the courge to date another human and put their fragile hearts on the line, only to be “date raped” (or worse). It’s a majority! Pretty sure, something like 70% of the women I got to know.

It all adds up to a metric shit tonne of social pressure for women to act in a certain way and takes a very strong person to push through. And then they will get shit, from all angles, including their peers.

Ride a motor bike like a twat?
If you’re a boy, your a “Lad” (insert knowing grin).
If you’re a girl, your a slut, or a lezzer (insert sneer).

Perhaps the worst part, though (possibly) is realising how much you (I mean me) are actually pressured to behave in a certain way and fill your gender role, to the satisfaction of society at large.
Another story, but that’s something that becoming a widowed father, etches into your consciousness. We’re all victims of that crap.

So, what I’m trying to say is, maybe asking Slabs to point to that particular thing, that clear impediment, that obvious barrier; is missing the point.

I don’t know, ask your mum, your partner (if they have the requisite genitalia), your sister, your daughter, A.N.Other human of the female persuasion; before you reach for “biological differences” as your first choice of character defining influences.




I’m going to regret writing this, aren’t I.

Fuck it. Been a long week and it’s only Tuesday.

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#86 Re: International women's day
March 20, 2019, 07:03:46 pm
That's some post Matt, sounds very hard. I hope things improve for you guys. Hard to follow that really.

Being the father of girls does open ones eyes to the different ways girls and boys are treated. Clothes wind me up. Clothes for boys tend to be about doing cool stuff - astronaut, adventurer, dinosaurs! - while girls are about being pretty or a princess - these are not things I want my kids to aspire to. By 5 they're telling you only boys can like dinosaurs. Even liking dinosaurs is genderr biased wtf!

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#87 Re: International women's day
March 20, 2019, 07:10:01 pm
Thanks for writing that, and I hope you're not regretting it too much. It can't have been easy to write (or to live, fuck), but it's important. I hope your week gets easier ...

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#88 Re: International women's day
March 20, 2019, 07:28:42 pm
Just read your post again Matt. It's good. Thanks for posting it.

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#89 Re: International women's day
March 20, 2019, 10:09:59 pm
That’s a brave post- and more besides. Wad.

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#90 Re: International women's day
March 21, 2019, 06:52:28 pm
Bravo Matt.

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#91 Re: International women's day
March 26, 2019, 03:21:38 pm
I have read this topic with interest, quietly, as I always do with ukb... Probably other women do the same. Not entirely sure why?

Anyhow, I've only ever made one first ascent of a route and I wonder what the reason is for that. On reflection, here's my answer from a female perspective:

I'm too lazy/busy. I choose to use my energy and climbing time for quality stuff, and there's not much spare for cleaning and equipping routes that potentially might not even 'go'.

I'm not especially bothered about posterity, leaving a legacy or my mark on the rock. At least, I did enjoy the feeling but it's not a strong, motivating force.

The good rock seems pretty much climbed out. I watched statement of youth last week and it stood out to me just how much that generation had to go at, it really was a blank canvas. It's not like that these days, new king lines are rare in the UK (not nonexistent, but few and far between).

Finally, I have noticed that the climbers who find ace bits of 'new' rock have a tendency to keep it secret so that they can develop it themselves. When they have climbed all within their range, they seem to open it up to their friends first before sharing with the wider world. Fair enough, but it means fewer people getting a piece of the pie.

All these hurdles are not gender specific as far as I can see.

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#92 Re: International women's day
March 26, 2019, 05:53:31 pm
All these hurdles are not gender specific as far as I can see.

Great post and I agree....

I think (really) there should be a new/different thread about "why do people put up new routes/problems?" (or something like that). SHARK/mods is this possible to fork / split the thread from here?


There were a couple of posts earlier in the thread where people explained why they thought putting up new problems was so ace etc.. that (from memory) seemed to espouse about its greatness. I've done a few new problems (probably less than 10) that has included de-veging, cleaning, a wee bit of digging etc.. and if I am brutally honest.

Meh.

Its nice when other people repeat them and say "great" or "scrittly choss shit hole" or however they may describe them - but if no-one ever goes near them I'm not fussed :D

Quite simply: I don't get a big buzz out of finding/doing new problems.

Some people do - great! I think I can see the reasons why - and its brilliant people do this - but  not me. I love bouldering and going and climbing in new places. I also love seiging problems for ages, but I'm happy to leave the problem hunting to those who love it.

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#93 Re: International women's day
March 26, 2019, 06:33:04 pm
All these hurdles are not gender specific as far as I can see.

Great post and I agree....

I think (really) there should be a new/different thread about "why do people put up new routes/problems?" (or something like that). SHARK/mods is this possible to fork / split the thread from here?

I would hate to split out NaoB's  :wave: first post when it specifically answers something in this thread from a personal gender angle (even if the conclusion was that gender had nothing to do with it!) to a  a new topic that was not to do with gender specific motivations.

How about you start a new thread maybe with some relevant quotes from this one on new routing motivations.

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#94 Re: International women's day
March 26, 2019, 08:32:55 pm
Thanks for the welcome Simon.

I forgot to say earlier that I am incredibly impressed by the few climbers I know who are prolific new routers. Folk like Pete, Robin and Greg work so hard looking for and developing new climbs that the rest of us can then enjoy. I don't want to do that myself.... But I do appreciate it!

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#95 Re: International women's day
March 27, 2019, 08:07:45 pm
By coincidence, I got into an argument with some “formers” on insta.
It wasn’t  private conversation, but it is a bit of a special interest group (mainly ex-service personnel now involed in PT or coaching etc), so people tendto be somewhat unguarded in their responses.
No names, no pack drill; but this is the kind of attitude that persists in many quarters..
The Gent in question is a former of both SAS and SBS(R) and an accomplished mountaineer and author.



Now, many years ago, as a PO Tiff, I was part of the build crew for HMS Westminster, a type 23 Frigate and the first ship in the RN to be built to carry (and therefore the first to carry a full compliment of) women. We were an experiment, previously the female compliment had been (effectively) supernumerary.
There were numerous problems.

As an example, at sea, the crew are the firefighters. You can’t call Trumpton in the middle of the Southern ocean. All members of the ship’s company have to train as fully fledged Firefighters and re-qualify annually. At sea, there will be a “Standing Sea Fire Party”, who rotate to provide a first response team.

In those days, we used a single piece compressed wool firefighting suit, called a “Fearnaught”, heavy leather fireproof boots and welders gloves. With BA sets and commed helmets (actually pinched from the Armoured regiments), a large, lead acid battery pack and miners head lamp.
All told 53lbs of kit, over top of Nomex Overalls, cotton under gloves and balaclavas and thick wool knee length socks.
(Fighting fires, inside a steel box full of diesel fuel, Avcat and a variety of things designed to go bang in a big way; is not fun).

So, before we even left Swanhunters shipyard, on the first night the entire crew spent on the ship; we have a major firex.
Like clockwork. No worries.
Next day, we put to sea for initial trials.

First order of business, an “at sea” fire drill, because that’s different to an “alogside” drill.

Disaster.

You see, this time, half the forward fire party were women. Turns out that the ship only carries “Large” or “Extra large”, the boots are either a 10 or a 12 and the women (3 out of the eight person team), cannot actually move.

You see, there were (in those days) height (min) and weight (max) requirements for men joining the Navy, so that Standard locker met the needs of most men. If you were a size 8 shoe, the 10 was ok with extra socks so, you took them with you. If you were a 13, you could squeeze into the 12.

One of the girls (she was 19), was just under 5’ and a size 3 shoe.

Ok.
We can sort this. Other sizes exist, it’s just a matter of calling stores and re-equipping the lockers.

So, that’s exactly what the Chief Stoker did (the man in charge of firefighting and damage control).

A few weeks later, another firex and it all grinds to a halt, before it starts. This time the ship is full of CS (Chemical Smoke or Tear Gas) used to make it more realistic. Bloody uncomfortable for the entire crew and nobody is amused that it’s all stopped.
Turns out, on this rotation, the Aft party is all male, have rocked up to don gear, only to find 2x Large, 2xExtra large, 2x Small and 2x Extra small suits in the locker and one of them wanders out onto the flight deck to model his bermuda short/ 3/4 length sleeve Fearnaught suit, aka a “Chocolate Fire Guard”...

Anyway. Turned out they had to change the protective clothing completely, fleetwide.

But, not until after the “women are too physically different/little/weak/not supposed to be here” shit reached an absolute crescendo of Daily Fail-esque wailing.
There was also the occasion when a girl on the team couldn’t lift the hatch to make re-entry into a compartment, because she wasn’t strong enough, just to add to the shouting match.

But.

Those blokes were wrong.

The kit was crap. Swapping out for a two piece suit, meant it fitted everyone better and reduced dressing times. Storing extra boots, wasn’t hard. 
The women coming in, had either transferred from the ( now disbanded) WRNs or were being recruited under their fitness standards (much lower).

Thirty years later. It’s a faint memory. Funny that it ever happened. The answer always turned out to be a change of attitude for the institution and the existing personnel (men).

Now, the Army and Marines have been told to suck it up. It’s bloody disheartening that lessons learned 30 years ago are going to have to be re-learned...


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#96 Re: International women's day
March 27, 2019, 08:30:26 pm
Like you I've lived through all of that stuff about female/male roles in the forces and experienced first-hand some of the attitudes. Maybe people on ukb would like to hear war stories, I don't know.. but it's got tit-all to do with the specific topic at hand really.
To reiterate - **in climbing** I don't think there are any demonstrable barriers to doing whatever the heck you'd like to do, whether you're a man or a woman.



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#97 Re: International women's day
March 27, 2019, 09:00:07 pm
Hmmm, possibly.

But, I’m only trying to give context to the last two paragraphs. Otherwise, it’s just random assertion, without basis.
 
It really was just that, I was reminded again, that social pressures (and perceived gender roles) were, are and probably will continue to be part of the context of “Life” and cannot be so narrowly defined as (for instance) “in climbing” and divorced from the rest of “Life”.
Also, that given a level playing field (like, the same fitness test (or at leadt comparable) regardless of gender) the problems which might be considered “biological” were not the serious barrier imagined by the “blokes”.

I don’t see how you can argue that “No demonstrable barriers exist” in climbing (to gender equality) when barriers, attitudes, role expectations, peer pressure, historic belittlement and “since birth” social programming; is so blatent and ever present, before our hypothetical woman even reaches these Elesium fields of barrier free acceptance and encouragement.

Seriously, your argument boils down to “ APART FROM  barriers, attitudes, role expectations, peer pressure, historic belittlement and “since birth” social programming and the impossibility of divorcing climbing life from the rest of life; WHAT HAVE THE ROMANS EVER DONE FOR US? EH?”

Edit:

Shit, I almost forgot. Did you miss the bit where I said the man who made that post is “an accomplished mountaineer and author”? Because that’s critical to my point. He’s one of us.

Also, it was meant to be an observation, because the topic has been on my mind, not a refutation to you specifically.
More that I see more barriers, the closer/longer I look.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 09:13:56 pm by Oldmanmatt »

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#98 Re: International women's day
March 27, 2019, 10:24:44 pm
To reiterate - **in climbing** I don't think there are any demonstrable barriers to doing whatever the heck you'd like to do, whether you're a man or a woman.

I know of girls who, as teenagers, were teased for the muscularity they gained from climbing. I'm aware of lots of women who find things like the training area at their local wall to be male dominated and intimidating. And at the crag, the vast majority of people I see climbing are men (last time at the Tor I think there was one woman climbing, and about half a dozen male pairs dogging around on routes). I think all of these things are demonstrable barriers for womens involvement in various aspects of climbing. They aren't closed doors, of course, but a barrier doesn't have to be a closed door, it can be a small thing that makes it just a little bit harder.

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#99 Re: International women's day
March 29, 2019, 01:42:17 pm
I just wanted to say, I hadn’t heard the NASA spacewalk story, prior to my post on the 27th.
Turns out, things haven’t changed much:

https://bbc.in/2FDupii

Edit:

Meant to ask if there were equipment oversights, that impact on your climbing. I’m guessing that clothing, shoes and harness type stuff is fairly well provided for, but is there anything less obvious?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 02:04:33 pm by Oldmanmatt »

 

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