[petejh]

To reiterate - **in climbing** I don't think there are any demonstrable barriers to doing whatever the heck you'd like to do, whether you're a man or a woman.

I know of girls who, as teenagers, were teased for the muscularity they gained from climbing. I'm aware of lots of women who find things like the training area at their local wall to be male dominated and intimidating. And at the crag, the vast majority of people I see climbing are men (last time at the Tor I think there was one woman climbing, and about half a dozen male pairs dogging around on routes). I think all of these things are demonstrable barriers for womens involvement in various aspects of climbing. They aren't closed doors, of course, but a barrier doesn't have to be a closed door, it can be a small thing that makes it just a little bit harder.

None of those things are really barriers inherent in climbing though. Some of those aren't even specific to women.

For example you say you know girls who get teased for the muscles gained from climbing. For every teased girl there is a teased nerdy boy, who doesn't like football but loves climbing. Or did male bullying stop?

If a training area in a climbing wall feels male dominated to women then there's a very simple fix for that. I mentioned a few posts back that in the walls I've visited over the past month the male/female ratio hasn't been far off 50/50 - probably around 60/40 M/F on average. Any of those women can walk into the 'male dominated' training area and even out the ratio. Nobody is going to stop you, and nobody is going to change it for you. It's the same as in any gym where males and females congregate.

Regards M/F ratio at crags - nothing other than a bit of social apprehension should be stopping women from going outdoors to - in your example The Tor - and hence evening out the ratio. That isn't a sexist barrier put in place by anyone (not suggesting you're saying it is btw).

Mentioning lack of equipment for space walks and an acquaintance's views about females in special forces as if they have anything to do with female opportunities in climbing seems to be grasping at straws. 'Climbing' is not lacking in all the equipment designed for women you could possibly want to spend your money on. Climbing isn't a job, or an institution with a male hierarchical structure. Climbing doesn't exist for the core purpose of the application of state-approved violence against almost exclusively other extremely violent men.     Making those comparisons is self-fulfilling prophecy stuff, seeking out a problem for a solution.

Some people have used the point that 'hardly any other women do xyz, therefore it's harder for women to do xyz'. In new routing this is no justification. By it's very nature, hardly anyone establishes new routes and nobody will have done *that* route before. It's a total free for all, which hardly anyone gets involved in. That's part of what's so attractive about it to me. If everyone did it I'd probably not be attracted and would just enjoy the fruits of their work instead. Lack of precedent is part of the attraction of new routing not part of a problem!

I accept lack of precedent/lack of numbers might be a hurdle for people whose traits make them attracted to following the 'norm', but that isn't a female-specific hurdle.

I got into this topic because the original poster stated: So today is international women's day. A day as good as any to reflect on what needs to be done in order for women to have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing.

I struggle to think of a more egalitarian activity than climbing - I still haven't seen any convincing evidence that women don't have exactly the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing.
Why they haven't done so in the specific realm of establishing new routes is an interesting question. I accept that part of the answer is down to timing and numbers - as in if it were the 80s but with the current ratio of men/women then things would probably look different. But that doesn't seem to be the whole answer.

[tomtom]

😱

[andy_e]

I've avoided adding my views on this because I hate debating on the internet because more often than not it's like talking to a closed-minded brick wall. This will probably have no effect on petejh, but hopefully it will enlighten some others.

The points joel182 make are all very valid and align to what I see as being some of the biggest barriers to women's equality in climbing. The counterpoints petejh makes are an excellent example of something already mentioned in this thread, a white middle-class male not being able to see everyday prejudices, and therefore determining "there are no barriers to women in climbing."

For example you say you know girls who get teased for the muscles gained from climbing. For every teased girl there is a teased nerdy boy, who doesn't like football but loves climbing. Or did male bullying stop?

This isn't even recognising the point, let alone addressing it. Body issues in females have been discussed here at great length recently. It goes beyond vanity to self-confidence. If a woman is made to feel uncomfortable because climbing changes her body, then that is a barrier to women in climbing. The football analogy is bizarre; it's because I hate football that pushed me towards (former) countercultural activities such as climbing. In that respect, that analogy is the opposite of a barrier. Either way, it's unrelated to the point joel182 makes.

If a training area in a climbing wall feels male dominated to women then there's a very simple fix for that. I mentioned a few posts back that in the walls I've visited over the past month the male/female ratio hasn't been far off 50/50 - probably around 60/40 M/F on average. Any of those women can walk into the 'male dominated' training area and even out the ratio. Nobody is going to stop you, and nobody is going to change it for you. It's the same as in any gym where males and females congregate.

Again, you appear to have missed the point entirely. Using the Depot board room as a prime example of this (and perhaps partially contributing towards it myself by climbing in there when there's a group of us), it can seem very laddy and intimidating. There's a thick stench of masculinity in that board room that is no doubt intimidating to women. There's strong language, banter, tops-off-for-power strong lads in there, it's hardly a welcoming environment. Of course, if a woman did walk in there and start climbing, which happens occasionally, then they're welcomed. More often than not though, these women already know the men in there. So for a woman (and indeed, probably many men too) who sees a big bunch of strange lads huddled away in a back room ripping the shit out of each other, it's going to appear vulgar and off-putting. This is a barrier to women using the training equipment, therefore a barrier to women in climbing.

I can't really be bothered to argue any of the other points, but just wanted to make those two key points. On the whole, I feel the situation is improving; more and more women seem to be getting into climbing, no doubt thanks to things like the Women's Climbing Symposia, Shauna Coxsey being the best in the world, and increased female presence in climbing media. However, climbing to me still seems largely male-dominated and not necessarily a welcoming environment towards women. When popular social media accounts (run by close friends of sponsored climbers) make "joke" posts about sexual violence towards women and it's accepted as part of the climbing scene, then there's a huge issue of toxic masculinity pervading climbing. Frequently, phrases like "I just need to man up and go for it," "don't be such a pussy," and "I've not got the balls for that move" are used, which just exacerbates the situation. Masculinity should have nothing to do with how a person climbs; movement on rock or plastic is not gendered so don't make it so.

I could go on huge rants about social media in general (look on instagram's #climbing or #mountains and things like that, it's mainly scantily clad women being sexualised to sell a lifestyle and/or product) but I'll save that for another time.

There are barriers to women in climbing. Not acknowledging there are barriers to women in climbing is itself a barrier to women in climbing.

[andy popp]

Good post andy.

[petejh]

Your examples of 'barriers' can very quickly be shown not to be genuine female-specific barriers by considering if removing the 'issue' is reasonable.

A training board full of lads with their tops off, jibing each other and sessioning problems. What's the solution to this supposed gender specific 'barrier' - rules against removing tops? Rules banning banter? Rules against groups of greater than 'n' males allowed to congregate?
No of course not (I wouldn't argue against the tops..). Because none of that would be a reasonable response to what amounts to extremely  trivial issues of differences in how some men and women behave in the real world. That doesn't constitute 'a gender specific barrier in climbing'.

The example of a boy being bullied or teased because he isn't into football - change for whatever 'norm activity' you want - is just to point out that for any example of a girl being teased for not fitting the norm there are just as equal male examples. It doesn't constitute a gender specific barrier to climbing.

The obvious answer in the two examples above is live and let live, treat others as equals, show a bit of consideration and treat people how you would like to be treated. Nothing dramatic just everyday courtesy.

[Oldmanmatt]

😱

Yep.

[Oldmanmatt]

Your examples of 'barriers' can very quickly be shown not to be genuine female-specific barriers by considering if removing the 'issue' is reasonable.

A training board full of lads with their tops off, jibing each other and sessioning problems. What's the solution to this supposed gender specific 'barrier' - rules against removing tops? Rules banning banter? Rules against groups of greater than 'n' males allowed to congregate?
No of course not (I wouldn't argue against the tops..). Because none of that would be a reasonable response to what amounts to extremely  trivial issues of differences in how some men and women behave in the real world. That doesn't constitute 'a gender specific barrier in climbing'.

The example of a boy being bullied or teased because he isn't into football - change for whatever 'norm activity' you want - is just to point out that for any example of a girl being teased for not fitting the norm there are just as equal male examples. It doesn't constitute a gender specific barrier to climbing.

The obvious answer in the two examples above is live and let live, treat others as equals, show a bit of consideration and treat people how you would like to be treated. Nothing dramatic just everyday courtesy.

You are Jordan Peterson and I claim my £5.

That’s gentle ribbing Pete, I get you’re not an extremist, even remotely.

It’s a little stubborn of you to decide to so selectively isolate climbing from the rest of LIFE, because it’s kinda hard for the rest of us, male and female alike. It’s also obstinate to ignore the multiple examples of “LIFE” being weighted against women, everywhere you look.

But hey, anyone who disagrees is just “virtue signaling” right?

And so you perpetuate the thing you deny.

[andy popp]

Pete, your refusal to even contemplate the possibility that there are barriers to female participation that you as a man either cannot see or cannot understand really says it all.

Is it any wonder so few women post here?

[measles23]

Seeing as there’s still a dearth of opinion from actual women on this thread, I just asked t’other half what barriers she’d experienced as a woman in climbing..

Her answer was “none, but I face barriers all the time for being too short!”

I asked her if she found groups of topless overly-serious male youth in the training area off-putting: She said “no, I just really enjoy watching the male students on Wednesday night failing on the problems I’ve done ” although she does cry sexism that she’s not allowed to take her top off too

She says she doesn’t do new routes because she’s got more important things to do with her time, and it doesn’t interest her..

She doesn’t post on UKB because she’s “allergic to social media”

This may seem flippant, but is coming from someone who has fought hard to break through some very real glass ceilings to be successful in her career as an army surgeon, and doesn’t suffer fools, nor patronage from those who see her as a member of victim group, gladly.

[Oldmanmatt]

See, that’s fantastic.

I mean that sincerely, without a hint of sarcasm or irony, because it gives me hope.

I asked my partner to contribute, because she has a different view, but she refuses to have anything to do with UKB anymore (Pollylolly I think is her user name). She calls it UKBollocks, because it’s all cock swinging, confrontational, balls.
She’s an ex-Trinity House Deck Officer, from a millitary family (Navy) etc. She’s no shrinking violet. (Jesus, but no one else could deal with me).

She is also my boss. That is to say, she owns the Climbing gym I run. She, though, is a firmly V1 boulderer or laps of a 5 on an auto belay. Prefering to belay or act as photographer on our family climbing days.

I wanted her to explain, how the climbers using the wall, treated her when she was on duty, in the early days and how she has developed a strong dislike of most climbers who don’t climb in family groups; since we opened the wall.
I often disagree with her, or think she’s being over sensitive, but she won’t even use her own gym if it’s actually open. I didn’t just invent everything to piss Pete off.

[andy_e]

Thanks measles, it's good to actually have some data! More would be useful. If anyone else female (or indeed from a minority, I'd be intrigued by that perspective too) would like to contribute to this discussion, that would be awesome.

[petejh]

There are three female contributors to this thread saying there are no specific barriers in climbing for women:

RB
Nao
Measles' partner

[tomtom]

There are three female contributors to this thread saying there are no specific barriers in climbing for women:

RB
Nao
Measles' partner

Are you bringing it back for a 3rd MV? 😂

[petejh]

Apols for trying to state facts. 

[TobyD]

I have to say I have a lot of sympathy with Pete's points. I think I'd hazard that women certainly do face barriers to being involved in climbing, as do men, but they're different.  I'd agree that  climbing is noticeably more egalitarian than most sports. The tor is a poor example of a cliquey 'Male' environment,  it is no doubt at all cliquey,  but that isn't gender specific!

To accuse Pete of being Jordan Peterson is pretty offensive.  Well, I'd be offended. A voice like Kermit and a 100% beef diet? Cambridge university must have been worried about his farts more than his views... anyway sorry to veer off topic.

[Oldmanmatt]

Seriously Toby, I specifically stated that the JP thing was a joke, in the next line; of course I don’t think Pete is even remotely in that region of lunacy, and he’s certainly not being anti-woman.

Pete, Slabs actually stated there were social impediments, which you asked her to detail and pinpoint. Relevant, surely. Unless we’re going to say that society wide equality has been achieved? So I don’t see how pointing documented instances of bias in wider society should be excluded as a counter to your argument. Nor do I see that  as branding women as, or corralling them into, a “victimhood culture”.

 I do think you missed my point about the Instagram post, too, it’s not the SF aspect, it’s the language used. “Splits”? I haven’t heard that phrase for 20 years, I thought we were passed that. (He also run the company that organises some pretty high profile endurance races, worldwide; so the attitude seemed even more irritating).
You moved the goal posts, as far as I’m concerned, because we were discussing your assertion that brain structure/ neuroscience was the most likely reason for (in your eyes) female under representation in new routing and I reckon you’re wrong, because I can see/have witnesed a myriad of wider social pressures that seem way more likely to be influential, than your proposed notions.
I’m perfectly well aware of the similar, but perhaps not gender specific impediments that all of us face, I just didn’t see it as part of this discussion.

Further, as I read it, none of the reasons given by the actual experts, for their limited new routing work, reflect aything other than the exact same reasons the vast majority of male climbers don’t do it either.

[reeve]

The women whose voices I would most like to hear are those who most strongly experience there being gender-specific barriers in climbing; however they are the people least likely to post here. Nonetheless, to add to the data I've asked my girlfriend, Marie, about her perception of barriers to women in climbing.

Marie could think of a few examples of barriers as she experiences them, such as there being fewer female partners for trad (a diminishing factor as more women get into harder trad); her finding it easier to climb with climbers of a similar height & style (which rules out most men but not necessarily women, which reduces availability of partners, although she acknowledged that living in Sheffield reduces this factor due to the number of women regularly climbing); women are more likely to be sexualised than men or judged on their appearance (i.e. if climbing in a sports bra).

What I found most interesting is that the examples she gave were not what I expected her to say, even though I thought I had a good idea of what constituted barriers for women in climbing

Tangent: Marie is sat next to me and really likes the fishing emoji: 

[petejh]

Pete, your refusal to even contemplate the possibility that there are barriers to female participation that you as a man either cannot see or cannot understand really says it all.

Is it any wonder so few women post here?

This needs a reply because of how far off the mark you are Andy.

'My refusal to contemplate'?! Could you be any more wrong? It's exactly my contemplating the possibility ''that there are barriers to female participation in climbing'' that's driven me to ask the questions I've asked in this thread!
 
I've questioned the premise that lies behind the OP's statement: 'A day as good as any to reflect on what needs to be done in order for women to have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing'. I.e. the premise that women have less possibilities in climbing than men.
I'm actually completely open-minded to being shown that yes, women really do have fewer possibilities in climbing than men. So far I haven't seen very much convincing evidence for that claim.

And yes, I readily admit I'm starting from a belief that women have exactly the same possibilities as men do (I'm talking about in climbing). I'm open about that and not trying to hide it. But, I'm an open-minded, rational and fair person, open to evidence that conflicts with my beliefs and I'm happy to be proved wrong. So prove me wrong. So far I think many, hopefully fair-minded, people would say the evidence hasn't been very compelling. Including at least three female contributors who've said they believe they have the same possibilities in climbing as men.

To your second remark. This thread has prompted more female input - directly from Slabhappy, and a new contributor - Nao, and indirectly from partners of TB, Measles and Andy - than I can remember in years of UKB posts (that isn't a high bar to surpass admittedly!). So your second remark is as equally nonsense as your first.


Matt - I don't think I moved anything. The brain stuff is a side topic. The main point was about possibilities in climbing.   

[TobyD]

Seriously Toby, I specifically stated that the JP thing was a joke, in hithe next line; of course I don’t think Pete is even remotely in that region of lunacy, and he’s certainly not being anti-woman.

Sorry if you thought I was really criticising you Matt, not at all I just wanted to get at JP! I would say that women clearly encouter barriers to progression in many if not most areas of life but climbing doesn't seem to be one of those.

[tomtom]

😱 😱

[Oldmanmatt]

Seriously Toby, I specifically stated that the JP thing was a joke, in hithe next line; of course I don’t think Pete is even remotely in that region of lunacy, and he’s certainly not being anti-woman.

Sorry if you thought I was really criticising you Matt, not at all I just wanted to get at JP! I would say that women clearly encouter barriers to progression in many if not most areas of life but climbing doesn't seem to be one of those.

Nah, you just reminded me that any and all jokes, (intended) humorous retorts or hyperbole (for colour) need to be clearly labled and explained. I wonder if there should be a font delineation? All humour or exaggerated language to be written in comic sans?

[andy popp]

So far I think many, hopefully fair-minded, people would say the evidence hasn't been very compelling. Including at least three female contributors who've said they believe they have the same possibilities in climbing as men.

... This thread has prompted more female input - directly from Slabhappy, and a new contributor - Nao, and indirectly from partners of TB, Measles and Andy

Your post ignores the fact that Joel, Reeve and Matt all reported female partners or acquaintances who believe they have experienced barriers.

The fact that two women posting directly reflects more female input than in years is hardly a cause for celebration.

[user deactivated]

Apols for trying to state facts. 

And I thought it was closet sexism dressed up as intellectual argument. Don’t disappoint Pete! I grew up with in inherent knowledge that women made good nurses but terrible drivers. Now you guys are saying this isn’t true?

[petejh]

Apols for trying to state facts. 

And I thought it was closet sexism dressed up as intellectual argument.

Why?
Or am I supposed to accept 'it just is OK'.

[user deactivated]

I don’t disagree at all man. Nothing wrong with proving oneself right. It is a bit boring in the long run though, probably quite hard work too. All I hear at work is evidence based practice blah. Someone inevitably comes along with a better version of the truth or counter argument. This thread reads a bit like I’m not sexist but, yes you are cos, I’m not sexist but..... funny huh