[jwi]

So today is international women's day. A day as good as any to reflect on what needs to be done in order for women to have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing.

To this end, I've been looking for literature on women in sport. I have found lots about gender equality in the administration of sport associations etc. but very little written from the perspective of athlete's agency of their own sport. Has anyone read something of quality along those lines? Preferably written by female participants rather than outside observers.

[petejh]

So today is international women's day. A day as good as any to reflect on what needs to be done in order for women to have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing.

Can't comment on your request for literature.

But can you explain why you - presumably - think women don't currently have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing?

Before you do, it's worth defining what actions in climbing actually 'shape the future of climbing'. I can think of some, there are no doubt others I haven't thought of. But for starters:

1. Establishing significant new routes or boulder problems
2. Developing significant new areas
3. Significant repeats
4. Competition success?

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say women are massively absent from 1 and 2 relative to men. Not so from 3 or 4.

What possibilities do they lack, and why?

[jwi]

I don't think it is my place to discuss this subject extensively as I would much rather hear from people who, unlike me, are knowledgable. So just on short comment.

But can you explain why you - presumably - think women don't currently have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing?

I agree that women are massively absent from 1 and 2 above; except for a few exceptions like Lynn Hill's absolutely groundbreaking first free ascent of The Nose — still one of the hardest route on El Cap — I'm struggling to come up with names. Either this is because Women are inherently worse at establishing new ground or they are somehow held back by something  else e.g. lack of mentors, loud criticism, falsification of history etc. I have a hard time believing the former so I conclude it is the latter and that something should be done about it. I certainly did not mentor any women back when I was an active developer (alas, bringing significant other or love interest does not count), I just wanted to hang out with mates when doing this which seems unwise in retrospect.


In addition to 1-4 I can also think of:
5. Teaching climbing to the next generation (writing, guiding and instructing).
6. Designing and constructing new forms of climbing gear.

[Oldmanmatt]

Running the BMC?



That has to be, at least moderately, influential...

Edit:

Too obscure again, sorry.

I mean, maybe if we (men) gave them credit for what they are already doing, have done and have been doing since the dawn of the endeavour; they wouldn’t feel as disenfranchised?

Not as if their contribution, to date, has been minor or peripheral is it?

Write a list of accomplished, influential, female climbers and it’ll give you blisters on your typing finger (I only use one, normal /people can replace that with “fingers”).

[tomtom]

Quite a lot of these 1-4's etc.. may reflect a historical legacy...

I have no figures but I would doubt anyone would disagree with me that there is a far better gender balance now in indoor climbing/bouldering centres than there was even ten years ago. Personally, I find it superb that our best competition climbers are female - and from my perspective everyone gets right behind them in the climbing world.

However, a better gender balance does not make everything correct / perfect / ideal BTW. 

Tangetally - but importantly, I think there is a huge issue in the UK of a lack of participation in outdoor activities like climbing and hill walking by people of BAME background. BAME represent (at last census) 7.6 million or > 10% of the population. But on a sunny day in the Peak its all pretty white...

[petejh]

OK so a definition of 'shaping the future of climbing' so far looks like:

1. Establishing significant new routes or boulder problems
2. Developing significant new areas
3. Significant repeats
4. Competition success
5. Teaching climbing to the next generation (writing, guiding and instructing).
6. Designing and constructing new forms of climbing gear
7. Taking positions in representative bodies


I've always found odd the disparity between men and women in 1 and 2. I used to imagine it was something to do with women being inherently less adventurous, but now I don't think that's true.


edit: I'd be interested to hear anyone put forward what barriers to entry women face for 1, 2, 3 or 4. I'm unable to think of any - in my experience (1 and 2) they just rely on going and doing it and don't need anyone else's input really.
 
On the other hand  I can think of some cultural barriers to entry for 6 and 7 that might be found in any other workplace.

[gollum]

I reckon I have been back following this forum for six months or so and don’t recall a single post by a woman.
I could be mistaken.
That has to be a bad thing.

[slab_happy]

I reckon I have been back following this forum for six months or so and don’t recall a single post by a woman.
I could be mistaken.
That has to be a bad thing.

*coughs politely*

[tomtom]

👍😃

[Hoseyb]

I feel the North Wales scene has always had women quietly working away without any fanfare, from Bonny Mason new routing in the 70's to Glenda et al 80's and 90's through to the girl crush movement today. As for teaching,  they've been present from brede arkless through to Libby peter. Plenty of role models, but maybe not enough to sway the majority. Am I also the only person who immediately thinks of Deadpool when they see the thread title?

[teestub]

Am I also the only person who immediately thinks of Deadpool when they see the thread title?

  that whole scene is gold!

Agree about N Wales, Emma Twyford seems to be a forerunner these days and has been doing more and more impressive ascents each year.

[slab_happy]

I reckon I have been back following this forum for six months or so and don’t recall a single post by a woman.
I could be mistaken.
That has to be a bad thing.

I actually agree that climbing forums can be very dude-heavy, which in turn tends to be self-reinforcing, and that this is not ideal.

However, it can also be easy to assume that all posters on the internet must be men unless they state otherwise (because we're trained to think of male as the "default" identity, unconscious social assumptions and all that). Which is also not ideal!

[petejh]

Mark, I don’t disagree that there are plenty of women in n Wales climbing well but the OP specifically mentioned ‘shaping the future of climbing’ which immediately got me thinking ‘what defines shaping the future of climbing?’.
It isn’t just having a good scene, and repeating a bunch of 8as, E7s, or font 8As. Or redpointig 8c. Undoubtedly great as that is.

I’m just aware of the weird and obvious anomaly in who has actually put up the overwhelming majority of climbs upon which ‘the future of climbing’ is based. Any honest discussion of gender and ‘shaping the future of climbing’ can’t ignore that (bull) elephant in the room.

[gollum]

I reckon I have been back following this forum for six months or so and don’t recall a single post by a woman.
I could be mistaken.
That has to be a bad thing.

I actually agree that climbing forums can be very dude-heavy, which in turn tends to be self-reinforcing, and that this is not ideal.


However, it can also be easy to assume that all posters on the internet must be men unless they state otherwise (because we're trained to think of male as the "default" identity, unconscious social assumptions and all that). Which is also not ideal!

That was what I was trying to say before I fell in my own trap and ended up saying something completely different.

[slab_happy]

Am I also the only person who immediately thinks of Deadpool when they see the thread title?

I always think of Richard Herring and his annual lonely Sisyphean task:

https://twitter.com/Herring1967
https://www.gofundme.com/whensinternationalmensday2019

[Catcheemonkey]

I always think of Richard Herring and his annual lonely Sisyphean task:

https://twitter.com/Herring1967
https://www.gofundme.com/whensinternationalmensday2019

I’d not encountered this quest before. What an absolute legend!

[mrjonathanr]

Good topic.

5. Teaching climbing to the next generation (writing, guiding and instructing).
6. Designing and constructing new forms of climbing gear.

I run a climbing club in a girls’ school, so I contribute to 5. We were out climbing tonight in fact. Except I’m a middle-aged male so not representative of female climbers. And in a small school, as a climber, I’m in a majority of 1, so that won’t change soon.

It is surprisingly tricky to get good role models for them (in real - not digital - form). The Pinnacle Club don’t work with minors and the local wall hasn’t got a ladies’ night or similar. Not yet anyway, though it’s been suggested.

Mina was good enough to do an assembly - and she was brilliant     I plan to contact local clubs but any other ideas/knowledge would be very welcome.

[mrjonathanr]

PS Tomtom - your BAME observation I’ve pondered too.

[ashtond6]

Whilst I complete believe women’s rights has a long way to go and should be shouted about.... I  really do not understand why climbing is always touted as an area that needs that change.

I really believe that its one of the few area in which equal opportunities exist!

[Steve R]

But can you explain why you - presumably - think women don't currently have the same possibilities as men to shape the future of climbing?

I agree that women are massively absent from 1 and 2 above; except for a few exceptions like Lynn Hill's absolutely groundbreaking first free ascent of The Nose — still one of the hardest route on El Cap — I'm struggling to come up with names. Either this is because Women are inherently worse at establishing new ground or they are somehow held back by something  else e.g. lack of mentors, loud criticism, falsification of history etc. I have a hard time believing the former so I conclude it is the latter and that something should be done about it.

What about a third option along the lines of women are inherently less interested (generally speaking of course) in 1 and 2 type activities?  Assuming one doesn't cling dogmatically to the idea that there are no psychological differences between the sexes, I'd guess the disparity that exists in 1 and 2 could almost entirely be put down to simple and benign factors such as interest and preference.  Which is fine and suggests we don't actually have a problem?  Obviously you'll get outliers (worth celebrating) but owing to general trends in inherent predisposition, you'll always have a significantly greater proportion of men doing 1 and 2 type stuff simply because they're (generally) more into it.     

[andy popp]

What about a third option along the lines of women are inherently less interested (generally speaking of course) in 1 and 2 type activities?  Assuming one doesn't cling dogmatically to the idea that there are no psychological differences between the sexes

Except that science has pretty thoroughly debunked the idea of male/female brains.

[Steve R]

Whilst I complete believe women’s rights has a long way to go and should be shouted about.... I  really do not understand why climbing is always touted as an area that needs that change.

I really believe that its one of the few area in which equal opportunities exist!

Yeah, agreed - as far as I can tell in climbing they we have already won.  The veil of ignorance type thought experiment confirms it for me - I can't think of any variety of human where it'd be bad news re climbing.  Apart from coming back as Joey Kinder maybe...

[Steve R]

What about a third option along the lines of women are inherently less interested (generally speaking of course) in 1 and 2 type activities?  Assuming one doesn't cling dogmatically to the idea that there are no psychological differences between the sexes

Except that science has pretty thoroughly debunked the idea of male/female brains.

not sure what the idea of male/female brains means exactly but as I read/understand it, scientific consensus is that there are clear differences in certain personality traits and behaviours that are caused at the genetic level?  Overlapping bell curves type stuff?  would be keen to update my understanding if that's wrong.

[mrjonathanr]

Nature vs nurture? Not sure that’s quite been put to bed yet.

[Will Hunt]

Shout out to Emma Alsford. If we take guidebook production as an important part of shaping climbing then she's been working wonders with the CC Pembroke guides. Not to mention her developing and documenting lots of new stuff in Morocco.