[turnipturned]

I massively respect the ground up approach (hence my mention of Cal's impressive ground up onsight ascent).

However I am personally not that bothered about ground up ascents or hard onsights (albeit this is probably not that hard) or the consequences it could lead too..... not really in the position to break my leg or ankles. I personally see it as more of a very highball (bishopesque) boulder problem and in that way, I approached this as I do with every other very highball boulder (which to bolt is not).

Having climbed a lot of the boulders in Yorkshire,  its always nice to climb on new terrain and a style I am not very comfortable with.

In terms of my platform, I would say its a very small platform and has little influence. I don't set out  to tell people what to do, more hope to inspire and motivate people to get out and enjoy British rock climbing. (However, I am becoming more aware of the impact that filming all these boulders has on popularity and potential overuse)

[Johnny Brown]

Fair enough. I'd be fascinated to read some history of the Bishop highball scene and how it compares to grit, I know there's been plenty of cross-pollination but it's interesting to see that as your reference point.

I think you're being modest about your platform though, I appreciate it's a small pond but isn't it the biggest UK bouldering channel?

[teestub]

Lots of the big Bishop boulders have bolts on top for toproping. There’s been kudos for GU ascents (Evilution comes to mind) but I don’t think there’s anyone out there on a podium saying that boulders shouldn’t be toproped once they’ve been climbed GU.

[Johnny Brown]

I'm not sure there's anyone 'on a podium saying that boulders shouldn’t be toproped' here either.

As long as people (especially those with a profile) are 'giving kudos for GU ascents' then we're all good, I think.

[teestub]

Forgot my winky smiley face.

There’s deffo extra column inches for GU ascents, lots of spray around Ambrosia as a potential target (top wall ‘only’ French 7b+) but no-one has stepped up yet.

[joel182]

I think you're being modest about your platform though, I appreciate it's a small pond but isn't it the biggest UK bouldering channel?

Bouldering Bobat is probably the biggest UK bouldering channel, although their content is mostly indoors.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

To sum up what I've already posted .. People are free to do what they want, others are free to criticise. But given it is ethics not rules I'm less bothered by folk's approach as to whether they've given it any thought. But yeah, I think there should be a direction of travel which is doing more with less.

My own reasons for trying Marrowbone ground up would include the history.

JB, it's a pretty good approximation of where some of us are coming from, especially "doing more with less" - which is pretty much my entire philosophy. Whether I think that "should be so" is not - it would be nice to see, and even better to see climbing express this, but as soon as you say "should" I think you're likely to put people on the defensive, and actually not consider the merits of different ways.

I think your other line polarises: "People are free to do what they want, others are free to criticise" - which is what this thread seems to have turned into. However that's not representative - or really makes sense, unless you mean that you can be in the "do what you want" camp, but not the criticise camp at the same time

This started because of the article, and the influence that the UKC platform has - and the potential for people to not give things the thought you refer to above.

For me, it's not even about (climbing) ethics, as much as how much the media can push a certain fashion in climbing.

Lastly, re Marrowbone. By Ground Up, do you mean without pads? It would be good to see the term meaning what it says.

I think there is more wear and tear because of mats.

Ground up used to be a bit like the Gold Standard. With pads, it's a fiat system 😉

[Johnny Brown]

By all means say question if criticise seems confrontational. I doubt there's much difference to the person being questioned.

If it's not clear by now, for me it doesn't matter for me what you put on the ground, it's the direction of travel.

More wear and tear because of mats? I dont think so. You could argue that without mats bouldering wouldn't have got so popular. But I think that's specious, plus they aren't going away. More people means more erosion, but mats temper it somewhat.

[northern yob]

I believe the big man JD did this onsight before mats( early 90’s)

[northern yob]

By this I mean Marrowbone.

[moose]

Off topic, but this comment from the same interview is quite funny:

Bouldering competitions used to test all sorts of skills and physical limits of climbers. Things like hand strength, power, power endurance and fitness really mattered. Now the complete list of boulder competition skills are:

Standing on volumes
Jumping off volumes
Jumping to volumes
Mantling off volumes

[jwi]

Off topic, but this comment from the same interview is quite funny:

Bouldering competitions used to test all sorts of skills and physical limits of climbers. Things like hand strength, power, power endurance and fitness really mattered. Now the complete list of boulder competition skills are:

Standing on volumes
Jumping off volumes
Jumping to volumes
Mantling off volumes

I don't know how comps are run in Canada, but that categorisation of contemporary comps is really stupid.

[teestub]

That looks like the categorisation of a ‘hater’!

[user deactivated]

Is that good or bad?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

By all means say question if criticise seems confrontational. I doubt there's much difference to the person being questioned.

If it's not clear by now, for me it doesn't matter for me what you put on the ground, it's the direction of travel.

More wear and tear because of mats? I dont think so. You could argue that without mats bouldering wouldn't have got so popular. But I think that's specious, plus they aren't going away. More people means more erosion, but mats temper it somewhat.

I don't think you understand my post JB. Please don't be so ridiculous as to suggest it's the word I don't like! It's really nothing to do with "criticising/questioning" , but looking at the different approaches.

The wear and tear is a consequence of more people trying things they're possibly not ready for.

Pads make everything more accessible - and hence more popular. Often taking the gym outside of course.

I think you're just denying the effect of throwing a few pads down. It's a game changer, and absurd to say it isn't.

For you personally, it doesn't matter what's on the ground, but that really just denies the alternative. It's not suggesting you "should" care.

Again, if you think this is "criticising/questioning", it's not delivered in that way - although you seem to want to bear it that way. I boulder above pads, but often deliberately avoid it. It changes the engagement.

Often on limestone, a couple of pads can make the difference between being able to pull on or not - as we know.

I remember what DFS stands for now. Deep Foam Soloing 😉

[teestub]

Often on limestone, a couple of pads can make the difference between being able to pull on or not - as we know.

Probably putting you at a similar height to when the problems were first done prior to erosion of the landings!

[Mugabe251]

 

[Cornish]

I don't really care for this whole thing much, but a comedy word from the 1940's,

Alister Cowley on O.G. Jones essentially headpointing - "He used to go out with a couple of photographers and have himself lowered up and down a climb repeatedly until he had leant its peculiarities, and then make the "first ascent" before a crowd of admirers (sound like someone we know?). Now the essential difficulty of negotiating a pitch of any length is that one has to waste any amount of time and strength while one is finding where the holds are. There is no credit at all in repeating a climb..."

Alister Cowley from beyond the grave, didnt see that coming. 

       

[Fiend]

Excellent. If it's good enough for The Great Beast, it's good enough for me 

[cheque]

So practise isn't fine for first ascents then?

[Fiend]

Oh crap. I was skimming and mis-read. Down with The Great Beast! Death to the abominable heathen!

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think you understand my post JB. Please don't be so ridiculous as to suggest it's the word I don't like! It's really nothing to do with "criticising/questioning" , but looking at the different approaches.

No, I don't think I do then. Can you expand on your original comment on the Art Nouveau video? Who is the 'right to question' aimed at, you or them? I'd assumed no one needs the 'right' to question themselves, so presumed 'us' i.e. onlookers?
 

The wear and tear is a consequence of more people trying things they're possibly not ready for. 

Pads make everything more accessible - and hence more popular. Often taking the gym outside of course.

For you personally, it doesn't matter what's on the ground, but that really just denies the alternative. 

The alternative is the key word here isn't it? The genie isn't going back in the bottle. Pads are part of the reason bouldering got popular, but not the root cause - they didn't appear until there was a market for them. But there's also been indoors, videos, guidebooks etc and these factors all fed back into the mix. I think bouldering's growth is at heart due to the more session-based, individually flexible approach. You don't need a partner, you don't need to be physically tied into a series of lead/ second/ belay stints.

But that lightweight alternative falls down when you get into a typical grit ankle-breaker. Its way less hassle to shunt and solo something than assemble the team and pads for a ground-up - and the outcome is far more assured. Purists like us will continue to pop up and eschew this and that but I think history has taught us pretty well that most will go for the biggest number/ least hassle approach. As I keep saying, my experience is that the pad-up approach is far more protective of the rock than the headpoint. People facing a big fall climb carefully as best they can, not so on top-rope. Ground erosion is a different issue - it's due to footfall and most of the popular crags are far more eroded already than most realise. As I said, pads mitigate against erosion due to popularity.

I think you're just denying the effect of throwing a few pads down. It's a game changer, and absurd to say it isn't. 

I'm not denying it, I think you're overstating it. Specific examples where the game was changed please? Another of mine: years before trying Angel's Share I fell off the topout of Velvet Silence (due to snow) with no pads at all - not ideal but no big deal, the main issue was trying to avoid my camera bag. If it's really just 'a few' it wasn't that dangerous to start with. What seems absurd to me is giving big trad grades to these overgrown boulder problems - Angel's Share got E9 remember. Lolle.

[andy popp]

So practise isn't fine for first ascents then?

Do what thou wilt shall the whole of the law.

[teestub]

Do what thou wilt, but don’t expect big Aleister not to bitch about you to the media!

[petejh]

Oh crap. I was skimming and mis-read. Down with The Great Beast! Death to the abominable heathen!

 
Anti-authoritarian camo wearing connoisseur of choss and chief internet headpoint-baiter:


Abominable sex magick practitioner and climbing heathen: