[nik at work]

ps. there must be GU/OS E7+ FAs on the Lleyn and Gogarth? Has it ever been done on grit?

On grit I climbed Responsible Parenting at Summit Quarry 'onsight' (E7? Unrepeated, unconfirmed...).  If quarried grit counts??

I can see both Franco's and Fiend's points. The issue I had with the article (beyond it's unbelievable length...) is that it wasn't really a product of the argument that Franco has put forward. Rather a dummies guide to working things on a rope. Anybody with the strengths and skills to get on cutting edge new lines is undoubtedly going to also be equiped with the tech know how to work them on a rope, so the article contents appear redundant.

[Franco]

As someone who actually read the article beyond the title, that's an interesting angle and I appreciate you taking the time to engage with UKB.

It'll be great if you do inspire a few youths to do cutting edge new routes.

I think a really large part of the reason we're not seeing the huge leaps forward in Trad is because of the attitude displayed by Fiend.

Much as I'd like to take credit for almost single-handedly changing the direction of British climbing, I think this is bollocks.
The main, longer running, reason which is a lack of viable new routes in the major areas. Most top climbers live in the Peak and Snowdonia; these areas are pretty much climbed out.

Plus what has changed in the twenty years since Hard Grit? 1. The internet. 2. Bouldering walls. It used to be that the best way to promote yourself was to do a Hard new route and get it in the mags. It isn't any more.

I don't buy that last bit. There are quite a few pretty low-key humble youths about these days. Most people I know are either totally disinterested in courting publicity or do it a sport a means to an end. I really don't know anyone who really wants to be a well-known climber first and foremost. People are mostly inspired to climb inspiring stuff. Did anyone really ever do a death route to get in the mags?

You might be a bit right about there not being the right type of rock for proper hard routes in the major areas. Certainly the case in the Peak. I'd have thought N Wales would have tonnes though.. I've only spent a lot of time in the slate quarries, but there's stacks there to do.

[webbo]

As someone who actually read the article beyond the title, that's an interesting angle and I appreciate you taking the time to engage with UKB.

It'll be great if you do inspire a few youths to do cutting edge new routes.

I think a really large part of the reason we're not seeing the huge leaps forward in Trad is because of the attitude displayed by Fiend.

Much as I'd like to take credit for almost single-handedly changing the direction of British climbing, I think this is bollocks.
The main, longer running, reason which is a lack of viable new routes in the major areas. Most top climbers live in the Peak and Snowdonia; these areas are pretty much climbed out.

Plus what has changed in the twenty years since Hard Grit? 1. The internet. 2. Bouldering walls. It used to be that the best way to promote yourself was to do a Hard new route and get it in the mags. It isn't any more.

I don't buy that last bit. There are quite a few pretty low-key humble youths about these days. Most people I know are either totally disinterested in courting publicity or do it a sport a means to an end. I really don't know anyone who really wants to be a well-known climber first and foremost. People are mostly inspired to climb inspiring stuff. Did anyone really ever do a death route to get in the mags?

Is that supposed to be ironic.

[user deactivated]

‘Young James’ was a great insight into headpointing and the various reasons why for a talented youth. That conflicts with a few of the points above.

[kingholmesy]

...the only person I know who has claimed an E7 onsight new route is Mark Edwards.

Ground up but off the top of my head: Indian Rope trick and Broughton Power - E8s, Vickers
Monkey Journey to the West - E7, Me and Pete
Them other things at the same crag - E7, Arran, Mayers
Caffs high point on sight on Moonrise Kingdom - E8

I’m pretty sure some of Shane Ohly’s E7 FAs in Cornwall were done onsight.

What about Dawes too?  I imagine he must have done some new E7s onsight in Wales?

[mrjonathanr]

Hardback Thesaurus was GU but yoyoed so not onsight, if by the term you also mean flashed.

[kingholmesy]

Yeah I meant onsight flash to give it the full old skool term.

I think Come to Mother, E7 6a qualifies.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I think that in this context, On-sight, meaning ground up without practice is important. Whether flashed or not, much less so.

Professor Whitaker?

From 1988:

Hardback Thesaurus E7 6b, Gogarth, North Wales, first ascent, French 7c climbing and skyhook protection in the upper part, climbed without pre-inspection. Dawes took a 70’ near ground fall on one of his numerous attempts.

Professor Whittaker E7 6b 6a, Lleyn Peninsula, North Wales, first ascent, climbed without pre-inspection. Long runouts off bodyweight gear placements.

Then there's The Scoop on Strone.

[Franco]

...the only person I know who has claimed an E7 onsight new route is Mark Edwards.

Ground up but off the top of my head: Indian Rope trick and Broughton Power - E8s, Vickers
Monkey Journey to the West - E7, Me and Pete
Them other things at the same crag - E7, Arran, Mayers
Caffs high point on sight on Moonrise Kingdom - E8

I’m pretty sure some of Shane Ohly’s E7 FAs in Cornwall were done onsight.

What about Dawes too?  I imagine he must have done some new E7s onsight in Wales?

Would love to know more about the Cornish routes. Do you know which ones?

[cheque]

http://www.bluedome.co.uk/Climbing/climshan/climshan.html

[Johnny Brown]

Prof Whit was downgraded by repeat ascensionists to E5ish. Either Johnny was having a bad day or he missed something. The rock in this zawn is pretty good too. Birdy on the other hand...

Moonrise Kingdom was an extremely impressive demonstration of what Caff could do when the rock is available.

[T_B]

Then there's The Scoop on Strone.

Paul came clean on this that in fact they had a cheeky look at the top pitch on abseil. Still a stout effort when you consider the chopped rope incident.

[SA Chris]

http://www.bluedome.co.uk/Climbing/climshan/climshan.html

Interesting list, thanks. He's race director at Salomon Sky Races now and every time i see I wonder how much he actually did, other than write the "how to be a pro climber" article for OTE.

[galpinos]

http://www.bluedome.co.uk/Climbing/climshan/climshan.html

Interesting list, thanks. He's race director at Salomon Sky Races now and every time i see I wonder how much he actually did, other than write the "how to be a pro climber" article for OTE.

He also run's Marmot Dark Mountains and has set up the new Scottish Mountain Marathon. As a runner he has won the OMM, LAMM and  High Peak Marathon so not exactly a slouch.

[SA Chris]

Yep, he's the main man behind http://www.oureaevents.com/events/ so organises loads.

[Fiend]

I think a really large part of the reason we're not seeing the huge leaps forward in Trad is because of the attitude displayed by Fiend.

That's wrong on many counts.

1. It's not my attitude. It's a general ethical standpoint supporting good style and not supporting widespread adherence to challenge-avoiding style. I happen to be a vocal defender of that standpoint but there are others, vocal or otherwise.

2. Leads forward in trad are not just ticking bigger numbers by extensive headpointing. Leaps forward also include broadening a trad base, and climbing existing or lower grade trad in increasingly good style. Focusing purely on bigger numbers by any means necessary as the benchmark of hard trad is a delusion (a nice counter-example is Ondra, using his skills gained by pushing the biggest numbers redpoint, to then attempt very hard sport and trad onsight - really inspiring).

3. The standpoint I support is very much pro-trad and pro-progress. It's about acknowledging the modern climbing advantages, acknowledging the challenges inherent in a climbing, and acknowledging the vast amounts of climbs where style can be progressed. Leaps forward in trad can be attained by using that standpoint and pushing hard with it (like people deciding hey we've got pads, we can shove them beneath Angel's Share / Darkside / whatever and have a progressive and exciting adventure going ground-up).

4. I have never, as part of that standpoint, dismissed headpointing for climbing new routes of any level (as much as I respect those who do onsight new routes), especially cutting edge ones, nor early repeats of harder, unconfirmed routes. I support that as a sensible necessity. So that absolutely DOES NOT prevent huge leaps forward.

5. Even if the "lack of huge leaps forward in [implicit hard headpointing] trad" is a real thing (E9/10 is well established, E11 is reasonably established), there are many far more obvious reasons, i.e. the rise of sport climbing, bouldering, indoor climbing - all far more convenient than pushing trad (although, ironically, giving the climbing scene far more strength and physical skill to do so).




Other comments:

If the young guns are only inspired by the hard trad stuff (onsight or headpoint) then maybe they should stick to sport and bouldering, trad climbing has a whole different set of skills which need to be learnt and I would say going out top roping/headpointing is actually detrimental in that learning process. 2ndly there are plenty of safe and hard trad routes to go and onsight.

I very much agree. There could be a lot more promotion of hard-but-desperate routes as viable onsight/ground-up goals. 

I don't think Fiend's post was about Headpointing, but whether we needed an article on UKC about it, promoting it - which in my view is an entirely legitimate and worthy thing to ask.

Absolutely! And the point I've been trying to make all along.

A bit of both. I genuinely don't like mid-grade trade-route headpointing, but in this case, it's mostly disliking presenting an article promoting headpointing overall without much balance or context, particularly when the climbing scene doesn't seem to be progressing or improving style very fast.

[SA Chris]

That was Franco who said that btw. It makes it look like JB said it above.

[Fiend]

[quote ]

I think a really large part of the reason we're not seeing the huge leaps forward in Trad is because of the attitude displayed by Fiend.

[/quote]

Oooops yes sorry I grabbed it from JB's post cos it caught my attention there. Too late to edit but I'm sure it's obvious.

[kingholmesy]

http://www.bluedome.co.uk/Climbing/climshan/climshan.html

Interesting list, thanks. He's race director at Salomon Sky Races now and every time i see I wonder how much he actually did, other than write the "how to be a pro climber" article for OTE.

Slightly before my time (although I think he’s probably only around 5yrs older than me), but I think Shane was a bit of a local hero as a youth with lots of hard FAs and repeats in west penwith.

[ashtond6]

Genuinly trying to understand now... because I just don't.

Your ticklist is extremely impressive, plus I admire your commitment to onsighting & exploration or new or unpopular routes - I just really don't see why you care what everyone else is doing.  It certainly doesn't make you more ethical, however you always do opt for good style.

Comments below.

1. It's not my attitude. It's a general ethical standpoint supporting good style and not supporting widespread adherence to challenge-avoiding style. I happen to be a vocal defender of that standpoint but there are others, vocal or otherwise.

Surely it's not ethics, but climbing style. Ethics would be not gardening rare plants or chipping, as examples.

2. Leads forward in trad are not just ticking bigger numbers by extensive headpointing. Leaps forward also include broadening a trad base, and climbing existing or lower grade trad in increasingly good style. Focusing purely on bigger numbers by any means necessary as the benchmark of hard trad is a delusion (a nice counter-example is Ondra, using his skills gained by pushing the biggest numbers redpoint, to then attempt very hard sport and trad onsight - really inspiring).

If it's about ticking big numbers, why is it OK in sport climbing, where extensive pre-practice is used to tick big numbers? Do little bolts really make that much of a difference? (again see ethics point). Is this because that's how it's always been or what?

3. The standpoint I support is very much pro-trad and pro-progress. It's about acknowledging the modern climbing advantages, acknowledging the challenges inherent in a climbing, and acknowledging the vast amounts of climbs where style can be progressed. Leaps forward in trad can be attained by using that standpoint and pushing hard with it (like people deciding hey we've got pads, we can shove them beneath Angel's Share / Darkside / whatever and have a progressive and exciting adventure going ground-up).

What if I don't give a shit about progress? I'll never push the boundaries. What benefit is achieved by mid graders not top roping something first?
Does it upset you that an E2 climber could reach your numbers even though they are not as good as you? They are clearly not.

4. I have never, as part of that standpoint, dismissed headpointing for climbing new routes of any level (as much as I respect those who do onsight new routes), especially cutting edge ones, nor early repeats of harder, unconfirmed routes. I support that as a sensible necessity. So that absolutely DOES NOT prevent huge leaps forward.

So headpointing IS acceptable to you, providing its a second or third ascent of say an E8 or above? so basically 8b/7C climbers or people with a death wish, with a drive for early repeats.
IMO you learn how to do runout hard wall climbing, whilst doing runout hard wall climbing. Doing 50 E4s IMO doesn't make you ready to climb E5, it makes you good at climbing E4. I learnt this the hard way. 

I ab down stuff because:
1. I love climbing & after being injured for a long while, the thought of being injured & out again terrifies me.
2. If i break my legs, I probably lose my job (following this, house, etc)
3. I love the look of lines, however don't fancy getting up to the crux at the top & finding out its unprotected or v. run out.

Please don't just reply & say, climb something else. If that was the case, why is Malham bolted +1000 other examples.

[mrjonathanr]

I think Fiend is basically arguing for promoting a purer ethic -onsighting- and sees headpointing as a bit of a cop out. I know I do.

 I’m old enough to remember what we used to call headpointing before some wag coined the term: toproping.

Toproping just the once - not so bad, but it’s still a cop out. I have done routes that way, single top rope and no return till I did them 12 months later. They were a buzz, but something in my head says I was cheating. Inferior routes done onsight were more satisfying.

Headpointing opens the door to working a route like redpointing does, and that should be repetitive, targeted and efficient. I’m sympathetic to cutting edge new routes being done that way but would be sad to see that become increasingly normalised as a way to do things.

Headpointing isn’t the devil’s work, but it’s an inferior ethic and I’m not enthusiastic about its wholesale adoption when onsighting has so much reward.

[ashtond6]

It's a cop out as much as dogging up a sport route is, yes.

Why would you be sad if lots do it? How does it affect your experience?/Why would you care?


It's an inferior style* not inferior ethic.

[tomtom]

I largely agree with MrJ but the post does imply that onsighting something gives a greater reward than working it or doing it in a different way. I’d probably disagree with that.

[A Jooser]

http://www.bluedome.co.uk/Climbing/climshan/climshan.html

Interesting list, thanks. He's race director at Salomon Sky Races now and every time i see I wonder how much he actually did, other than write the "how to be a pro climber" article for OTE.

Slightly before my time (although I think he’s probably only around 5yrs older than me), but I think Shane was a bit of a local hero as a youth with lots of hard FAs and repeats in west penwith.

For the benefit/encouragement of the keen, I'll add some detail to that Bluedome webpage list which is not a complete list of Shane Ohly's harder routes in Penwith.

The Logan Rock route 'Phobia' is a fairly bold-looking one being a protection-less short slabby affair above a hard granite slopping ledge which you'd bounce off, eventually landing in the sea. Even if the moves on it are straightforward (they may well be) it looks scary to me. The next one listed as 'unnamed E5 6b' must be 'Beautiful Dream', which is actually E4 6a and has had at least one on-sight repeat. (The E5 6b on this slab, 'The Project', was led by Miles Gibson at a later date; I'm pretty sure it post-dates this Bluedome webpage.) Shane must have had some second thoughts about grades as 'Wet Dreams', listed as E8 on that page, is given E7 6b in all the guides and the article in OTE 80 that Gavin Slade wrote about their developments at the crag. I don't believe it's been repeat but this one might be a better proposition. It starts by stepping right off the bottom of a ramp just above the sea. Maybe not the cleanest of splashdowns but as far as I recall is mostly above water.

Another hard Logan Rock route not on this list is 'The Grassman' E7 6c the FA of which I think involved a fall. Although a photo of this was used in a HB advert at the time I've never been entirely sure where it goes. The topos and guides for the crag are all very unhelpful; I was hoping the recent CC guide would clear everything up but it hasn't.

In case it's misleading on the webpage 'Aero Dynamics' and 'Crash, Boom, Bang' are both at Chair Ladder.

'Manslaughter' at Coffin Cove (E7 6b) was described as an 'on-sight' in the 2000 guide for the area. So it may be that this and Phobia are the only E7s Shane ever claimed as on-sight first ascents. Neither of which have been repeated to the best of my knowledge.

Sadly the newest CC guide to the South Coast omits details of style of ascent that were in the earlier book - real shame not to encourage either a raising of the bar or a rising to the challenge. Worth noting too: there are daggers in the book indicating a lack of a second ascent on lots of routes that have been repeated numerous times - this is true for both Shane's routes and those of Mark Edwards.

Finally, I'd be very surprised if what Franco said earlier about lack of on-sight FAs of E7s is true although grade adjustment might rule some out.

Maybe Dave Thomas will know but wasn't Pat Littlejohn's Lazarus at Bass Point an on-sight? Granted the grade dropped to E6. Littlejohn must have done some in Pembroke and the Lleyn? How about Martin Crocker?

[mrjonathanr]

It's an inferior style* not inferior ethic.

Bless