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Franco’s Headpoint article (Read 76921 times)

Johnny Brown

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#75 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 12:23:50 pm
Agree with everything Andy has said.

One reason trad standards haven't progressed is the variety of climbing 'games' on offer now. But climbers are undoubtedly stronger and fitter, so there should have been a lot more progress. I think motivation is driven by the wider scene a lot more than we realise.

I've never really had a problem with people headpointing new routes, or using it to making quick repeats efficiently. It does seem to have dropped off since the post-Hard Grit era where it became the default and there'd be someone in situ on Downhill Racer everytime you went to Froggatt. I'm not sure the Onsight film really helped either - it ended up being mainly about failing ground-up.

I totally acknowledge that the failing ground-up approach has the potential to hammer the gear. I'm not sure how fair it is to automatically conflate that with advocating onsighting. And I do think that in reality the potential is more than compensated by the massively increased barrier to entry.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#76 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 12:51:03 pm
I hope they remembered to remove all the oxygen bottles and tents, dead sherpas etc, afterwards:



Isn't it all a bit absurd that on Himalayan giants there is a drive towards improving style, yet on 6m gritstone slabs, anything goes - including the right to question, out the window?

Isn't it just a case of more people wanting to be real, "worthy" climbers?

I was reading Classic Rock the other night, at a mates house. I still remember the complete sense of magic I had, looking at photos of routes like Tennis Shoe. Wonderful.

No offence towards Mr Wagner and team intended - or the brief image of Lance Armstrong grimacing, pre edit.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#77 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 12:58:33 pm
Massively generalised and presumptuous on my part, regarding possible motivations, but I hope the point wasn't lost.

Will Hunt

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#78 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 01:08:17 pm
Dave, if you're going to make the argument that the routes of previous decades shouldn't be done above pads, then you should also rule out other advances that have made yesterday's challenges into today's paths. Pads, cams, sticky rubber, tennis shoes, dynamic ropes, nuts, fingerboards, chalk. Where does it end? None of those things were available to Haskett-Smith when he shuffled up Napes Needle. Perhaps you think that climbs should be done in the style they were originally climbed in, which hands future ownership of climbing on a particular route over to the FA (and mandates the purchasing of a pair of rock-trashing hob nails and hawser-laid rope for 90% of the climbing population).

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#79 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 01:20:16 pm
None of those things were available to Haskett-Smith when he shuffled up Napes Needle.

If he did.  :worms:

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#80 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 01:23:24 pm
Isn't it all a bit absurd that on Himalayan giants there is a drive towards improving style...

At the elite level perhaps but the vast queues of people jumaring up fixed lines with oxygen does not indicate any trickle down of this style improvement?

I’ve always assumed that most people’s motivations lie in wanting to climb the bit of rock with the appropriate gear available to them, and on <10m high routes these days, that’s going to mean mats, the number of which will be limited by the number of friends you can recruit! 

Will Hunt

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#81 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 01:26:45 pm
None of those things were available to Haskett-Smith when he shuffled up Napes Needle.

If he did.  :worms:

Photo but no uncut video. Back around, Walter.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#82 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 01:46:31 pm
Dave, if you're going to make the argument that the routes of previous decades shouldn't be done above pads, then you should also rule out other advances that have made yesterday's challenges into today's paths.

You're probably quite correct in your reasoning there Will, but your premise isn't.

At no point am I suggesting what people "should"/"shouldn't" do.

I feel very strongly about that, but the language we use has a bearing on how aware we are of what we are doing, and how it might be done differently.

I'll have you know we even use different names to avoid the catch all phrase "I have climbed Stanage"!

However, I do think it's worth asking how much each advancement in technology could be considered cheating in different scenarios.

It's up to everyone to define their own challenge. It's also easy to see when two things aren't the same.

Edit. My post on UKC "In Praise of Cheating" was simply that the concept seems to be disappearing from climbing.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 01:53:20 pm by DAVETHOMAS90 »

Will Hunt

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#83 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 01:56:47 pm
At no point am I suggesting what people "should"/"shouldn't" do.

I don't think that's true. Your previous post patronised some people who'd highballed an old skool E6 and insinuated that their motivation was to be considered "real" or "worthy". We have no idea what their motivation was. I suspect it was to climb a beautiful looking route while minimising the risk, which is the bread and butter of most climbing.

You're a respected climber whose thoughts and opinions will be read and pondered upon by other climbers. They can ultimately make their own decision, but to publicly sneer at them is to suggest what they shouldn't do.

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#84 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 02:03:22 pm
Fair & reasoned response - maybe you are mellowing with age. However don't delude yourself that you are simply discussing climbing styles with those randoms.

You enjoy trolling people, I just like to give you some back  :jab:
More palatable, thanks.

I do sometimes troll people, and used to post / phrase posts for effect (even though they'd still be genuine). But when I'm standing up for good style and denigrating poor style (especially in the circumstances of clean easily onsightable classics), that's definitely not trolling. It's a position based on genuine beliefs and strong principles.

I also rejoice when people progress in good style and sometimes say as much (re: "Onsighting is goooood mmmkay" replies to onsight/flash news on here).

I've seen people also argue about bolts, and patios, and mass pad usage (including a UKC/UKB poster who has entitled many of his photos of headpointed Peak grit trade routes with "no mats, no cheating". Huh).


A while ago someone went through my photos (https://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/author.php?nstart=0&id=10178) on UKclimbing and gave every single photo a 1. Most pointless aggression ever as I have no idea why...
Been there regularly (subject to it, not doing it). Removing the voting breakdown was supposed to obscure that, but on lower votes it's very easy to calculate when someone has anti-voted a photo.


The ethics should be centred around what's best for the rock. The elitist approach works at Stanage and Froggatt where it protects the rock from being overclimbed; but there are heaps of climbs in Yorkshire that would benefit from traffic. There's really impressive 3 star lines at Eavestone and Guisecliff (and others) that are effectively not onsightable now without sending your mate to clean them first.
Now this is interesting. I agree there is a very good case* for laxer ethics and style at underused venues where the routes might be in poorer condition (spreading the load, exploring more, keeping more routes climbable - ANOTHER issue I am very enthusiastic about). But sending your mate down to clean them (while you do one for him) is of course a great option. I've done this for people a few times but will do it more in future (already planned, prior to this kerfuffle).

BTW I don't think good ethics are an elitist approach really. They're a great option for anyone irrespective of grade.

(* also great cases for new routes, unrepeated routes, routes beyond feasible current onsighting, etc - worlds apart from 1980s trade routes)


Dave, if you're going to make the argument that the routes of previous decades shouldn't be done above pads, then you should also rule out other advances that have made yesterday's challenges into today's paths. Pads, cams, sticky rubber, tennis shoes, dynamic ropes, nuts, fingerboards, chalk. Where does it end?
It ends up with all of those vastly increased advantages (let's also add better guidebook information, better public information, possible beta, better weather resources, sliders, rps, micro-cams, liquid chalk, quality brushes, and lots of potential supporting tactics) with people having more odds-in-their-favour and more reason than ever to improve style. Hopefully. Ground-up-above-pads has encouraged that, not a direct upwards improvement in style but a sort of diagonal improvement that reduces some of the challenge but maintains some of the commitment and adventure

Johnny Brown

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#85 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 02:18:54 pm
Dave, I get that it's not quite the lone enraptured male having a deep flow experience. But it depends what your dreams are. I'd suggest that they are somewhat arbitrarily based on what was 'the game' when you were an adolescent.

Bouldering mats are here to stay. Six lads at the crag in this day and age are going to have a few between them. I don't really see what the beef is. For me not using the pads would be contrived, not using pads after pre-practice even more so. And both in that context and outside it highball style remains authentic to me - it's real height, you have to figure it out and hold it together, and it's great fun with your mates. Isn't that what it's all about? I don't know whether you've been lucky enough to do much of this, but if not I'd suggest it's more 'real' than you imagine.

Plus, agree with Fiend and the other posts above.

Will Hunt

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#86 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 02:21:42 pm
but if not I'd suggest it's more 'real' than you imagine.

I still started when the bloke popped off Art Nouveau. But he landed well on the pads and didn't break his legs, so can't really be an authentic fall...

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#87 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 02:29:04 pm


I don't think that's true... We have no idea what their motivation was.

You berate Dave for ascribing motivations to others (even though he has said he wasn't) but you are quite happy to tell him what he is thinking!

 

Will Hunt

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#88 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 02:33:33 pm


I don't think that's true... We have no idea what their motivation was.

You berate Dave for ascribing motivations to others (even though he has said he wasn't) but you are quite happy to tell him what he is thinking!

Read Dave's two posts. He clearly implies their motivations, and then writes that he has presumed what their motivations were.

I've only pointed out what is implied by his own writing. You can't just write a load of stuff and then claim that none of it means what it says.

And I didn't berate him.

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#89 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 22, 2019, 02:40:11 pm
You can't just write a load of stuff and then claim that none of it means what it says.

Stop telling me what I can and can't do! :D


DAVETHOMAS90

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#90 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 01:22:13 am
This seems to have degenerated into a bit of b..x with people redefining what other people say, with their own interpretations.

I haven't stated what others should do, or tried to imply it.

What I have tried to do is open the question of how people describe and define what they do.

What was once acknowledged as cheating, is still cheating now, if you accept that it's a compromise of what we might call "style of ascent" - except that people redefine the terms of the game to include it.

If you - Will, JB - can't consider the question of what could be considered improvement in style, potential aspirations to that end etc, then the whole basis of this thread is non-existent too.

I do loads of things in climbing which other people consider a "compromised style" - I use chalk, sticky boots, I clip bolts etc - but I make my own mind up, along with some consideration of the values of the day, to decide what I'll find a rewarding approach. I don't like using pads - especially where I've soloed before - liquid chalk, claiming boulder problems with night time ascents, climbing things I did years ago using "new" footholds etc. There are trad crags where I've removed bolts, but with killer lines that I've thought.. could just.. do.. with one small bolt. Etc.

I know my climbing well enough to be able to consider my own personal limits of the game. I also can't ignore the game that was previously loved by those who used to climb hard aid routes on the crags we now sport climb on.

It's perhaps nice in some ways to have someone suggest I'm a respected climber, so I don't want to dismiss the comment, but most of all I have just really loved it.

I'm still struck with the excitement I can remember feeling when I first went cragging. Nothing to do with lost dreams.

What I try to do is raise the question - to think about styles, motivations etc.

I think there is too much emphasis on "who" people are in climbing, and I really like to encourage those I introduce to the sport to really carefully think about what they enjoy about it - the simpler or more intrinsic enjoyment.

Styles get "pushed" in certain directions, and in my view (that's an opinion folks) a great deal is lost. My first impression of the Franco article was indeed "do we need this?", "what are the consequences?" etc. Are there other approaches to climbing which might be better promoted?

Fiend, in his post on UKC seemed to be raising that point too.

That's my view and consideration. It's nothing to do with what other people should do. It raises the question, and it would be nice to think that those new to the sport can be aware of different ways of engaging with it, that may be found more rewarding.

My second post above, was an open acknowledgement that I was using one example to make a point.

I wanted to ask how much extrinsic factors play a part in the choices that people make.

It doesn't invalidate what I personally view as being all a bit absurd - and neither is that patronising anyone.

I do acknowledge that the way I used and posted the video was really inconsiderate. I think that's probably indicative of how very far removed from that I feel. I certainly hadn't intended any offence.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 01:43:16 am by DAVETHOMAS90 »

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#91 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 03:16:04 am
Why don’t you like bouldering at night?

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#92 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 07:54:14 am
I don’t like bouldering at night because the ‘view’ is an important part of being out. Whatever that view is. Has become a bit nit picky this.

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#93 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 08:36:55 am
But that wouldn’t really be an ethical consideration.

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#94 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 09:31:24 am
Cheers Dave. Thats a nicely thoughtful and very useful post. As a lower grade punter I think in a very similar way albeit with slighty different rules (for instance I started pre mats, have few issues with them but won't use them to siege worn problems). I've tried my best  to convince others with my views of putting the rock before ego but I guess the issue is how to encourage more new climbers to think in those ways, especially with the indoor masses ignorant of much of the history , ethics and the  scale of damage on popular lines and neglect on the uncommonly climbed. We dont have to agree on all the details but we should all respect the rock.

It's one of the sad things about losing Fiend again from UKC. He did enable useful debate. I do wonder though if he is incompatible with what the site currently wants to be with its moderation... if he was better behaved in their terms would he stop being Fiend?  I do think UKC need to think about this as even more potentially useful contributors might end up being banned or put off using the site. In contrast there are some pretty nasty regulars who are way more negative on average than Fiend but play the rhetorical games, sticking within the rules yet barely contribute anything useful to climbing discussions.  I do think he shouldn't have been banned this time if the site was working as I think it should.

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#95 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 09:54:54 am
Styles get "pushed" in certain directions, and in my view (that's an opinion folks) a great deal is lost. My first impression of the Franco article was indeed "do we need this?", "what are the consequences?" etc. Are there other approaches to climbing which might be better promoted?

Fiend, in his post on UKC seemed to be raising that point too.

Absolutely 100% correct, that was exactly my intention. If there are articles influencing and promoting style, they should be towards better (purer, more in line with climbing norms, fully accepting the given challenge, etc) style, particularly given all the modern advantages climbers have. The indications, especially on UKC, are that style is at best stagnating, despite those advantages, and articles highlighting better style could be very beneficial (or indeed films like Ground Up Attempts as JB put it). Incidentally I had intended in the last couple of years to write that exact sort of article (promotion / tactical, not ranting), but didn't get round to it, my own fault.

Incidentally, I really like it when other people promote strong ethics even when I disagree or don't adhere to those: Dave (and Keen Youth) with their no pads, SB talking to me that there should never be bolts even in the grotties dankest quarries in the County, Ken Wilson disparaging sport climbing - I don't agree but I definitely respect people taking a stand like that, even if it can be demoralisingly King Canute like.

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#96 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 11:25:58 am
Canute is much maligned:  he wasn't a pompous fool...  he was cleverly providing a lesson that even kings can't stop tides.

Sometimes I wondered if Ken realised he was inadvertantly supporting his opposition, like when he was fighting to save rarely climbed and very bold lower grade Portland trad from the bolters. There is little community benefit in having ethics that won't convince most other climbers and trying to force ethics that make most believe the opposite is simply not sensible.

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#97 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 11:34:54 am

My first impression of the Franco article was indeed "do we need this?", "what are the consequences?" etc. Are there other approaches to climbing which might be better promoted?

My over-riding first impression was that this article is probably just another one of many examples of a climber wanting a hit of public online attention, and a website commercialising that craving. I might be wrong, I haven't read the article. But I suspect it's probably a bit forgettable and inconsequential in the grand scheme.
 
The only reason this article's garnering more conversation than it otherwise would is because in the fall-out Fiend got banned from cocktalk. Probably the most interesting thing about it. No serious climber in the world gives a hoot about a Franco article about headpointing. It's just clickbait.

Jumpers for goalposts.. but there was a time when climbers who were at the very top of the game wrote well-considered opinion pieces on topics they felt strongly about.
Now we have a media that serves climbers who can satisfy their predilection for being seen and heard by submitting clickbait to an online advertising business happy to use the content and its ensuing bollocks talked to service website visits stats.

Maybe Fiend should have written an article about why he thinks headpointing is facile. I'd read it.

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#98 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 12:16:27 pm
I've not read the article

I didn't read the article... and I certainly will never read any replies to my comment on it

Read about half, but alternative was even more boring.

I haven't read the article and I doubt I'll get around to it.

I haven't read the rest of this thread.

I have neither read the article, nor headpointed anything

I haven't read the article.

 :lol:

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#99 Re: Franco’s Headpoint article
January 23, 2019, 12:27:26 pm
I'm going to top-rope it before I attempt to read it.

 

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