[user deactivated]

‘You’ve got to want it but not want it at the same time’. A friend said to me recently that he thought climbers were either dull or egocentric or a combination of both. This seemed to fit in with a non climbing friends impression of a climber talking about their sport, they did a pretty accurate ramble about training, process, psyche etc without ever having touched rock. I’ve thought about this recently and how it links in with the concept of ‘flow’ an idea in part borrowed from eastern religious practice (I think) which to some extent involves an altered state of consciousness and the dissolution of the ego. The problem being that the performance based context in which it’s currently used seems at odds with those ideas. In Buddhism I think there is a state of being ‘dharma driven’ in which the person strives so hard for enlightenment that they achieve a kind of false insight. This seems to me to fit well with the idea of flow and goal driven sport.

[teestub]

I attempted to read the main text on the subject Flow in Sports https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Flow_in_Sports.html?id=Jak4A8rEZawC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y I think it mentions flow being similar to states attained by mystics, but not it being based on any Eastern Philosphy. Sorry if this spoils your grumpy performance driven climbing grump of day 

IIRC flow is more likely to occur when the level of the challenge coincides with the level of the sportsperson’s ability. If the challenge is too easy then it will be boring, if the challenge is to difficult then it will be overwhelming. As such it seems that flow could occur just as easily in mid grade ledge shuffling as top grade bouldering.

[user deactivated]

No* grump here mate honest 😂

Seriously though, there’s a fair bit of mysticism in eastern religious practice. That text just borrows from it and links it to performance, hence the paradox. 

[teestub]

I remember it the other way around (I’m not going to reread it as it was tedious af), that they had identified similar mind states that occurred across sports occasionally during great performances, and that these mind states were similar to what might try and attain during Sufi Whirling or whatever.

I think the idea of learning valuable lessons from training and performance (independent of the chosen past time) that have use in a wider context is a fascinating somewhat linked subject.

[reeve]

Hi Dan - some good discussion of the mental states around climbing lately, thanks for kicking them off.

I'm not sure why you think there is a paradox in utilising flow (or trying to foster it anyway - it's pretty elusive) as a way of improving performance. Ego can impede good climbing performance, such as having fears around falling off in front of people or anticipating damage to our idea of our own ability, so if flow is attained (in part) by distancing oneself from one's ego, then it will likely be helpful. The form may be very similar to that of Eastern spiritual / religious practice, but the function does not have to be the same.

I'm not sure if this is a good example of a similar form-function difference, but how about the reasons that some people self-harm? Some people use SH for self-punishment; but others use it to feel something (i.e. anything) if they are dissociated [Sorry if these seems a totally random or inaccessible example, the target audience is probably just Dan, but I'm pretty sure he'll know what I'm on about]. The form is identical, but the function is completely different. As with using flow-like states to attain enlightenment (dissolution of the ego being one part of this, so flow as the end in itself); or with using flow-states to enhance climbing / athletic performance (dissolution of the ego being a means to an end).

A friend said to me recently that he thought climbers were either dull or egocentric or a combination of both. This seemed to fit in with a non climbing friends impression of a climber talking about their sport, they did a pretty accurate ramble about training, process, psyche etc without ever having touched rock.

I don't understand how this links to flow?

[r-man]

A friend said to me recently that he thought climbers were either dull or egocentric or a combination of both. This seemed to fit in with a non climbing friends impression of a climber talking about their sport, they did a pretty accurate ramble about training, process, psyche etc without ever having touched rock.

Seems like a limited view of not just climbers, but any human's relationship with an activity that means a lot to them. You could (but probably wouldn't?) draw the same conclusion from a musician explaining how they practice scales on an instrument, how they break a piece down into component parts, how they prepare mentally for a performance...

All that is an insight into the process, and into the details which people find easiest to talk about, but it says little about the moment they strive for, and all the ways that moment affects them. Surely there's more to those moments and the people who seek them. Something more than dullness and ego?

[user deactivated]

Huh a well considered post Reeve, damn it! 😉

I think you describe the paradox pretty well there. To achieve this desired state the outcome becomes unimportant and focus on the immediate experience everything, yet the drive to achieve it is based in wanting a particular outcome e.g. success.

In every loss there is gain. As in every gain there is loss. -Master Po quote from Kung Fu 😂

This relates to my friends assertion that climbers are dull and egocentric in that the singular focus on climbing and in this case the desire to achieve a ‘flow state’ to attain ones goals is this.

I agree about the same form different function btw but not wholly. On the subject you mention I think it’s to do the distress caused by poor intergration of ourselves e.g. driven by a lack of balance, with the aim of managing that somehow.

[user deactivated]

R-man, I agree it’s not something I agree with but just linked me thinking about this topic.

[mrjonathanr]

In every loss there is gain. As in every gain there is loss. -Master Po quote from Kung Fu

You never gain something but that you lose something. Henry David Thoreau.

[shark]

Am I allowed to use the notion of spectrum? 

If so there is reflection and just thinking at one end and an immersive doing and being totally involved at the other end which is the optimal performance state which I would think of as flow as I’m not very deep innit

From a practical point of view one of the key challenges in reaching this state is sidelining distractions/inhibitors whether that’s ego or someone whistling

[tomtom]

The UKC article lagers/shark highlighted about alcoholism in climbing (and its role in many 'classic' ascents) might be relevant here in some way?

It made me think about all the heady tales of climbing dare and do - about what I may have thought were products of mental clarity and a zen like calm - were because the protaginsits were wankered or hungover! 

[spidermonkey09]

It made me think about all the heady tales of climbing dare and do ...

Apologies TT but I cannot let that eggcorn pass without noting it!

Back on topic, I think R-Man has it spot on. Superficially of course a climber going on about a certain route/problem, obsessing about training is egotistical and boring, but the same goes for lots of sportspeople and indeed anyone who cares passionately about their job, or hobby, or whatever gets them going. Anyone who has ever sat drinking with surfers would testify to this!

My thoughts on flow from personal experience are how the times I have experienced it I have stopped caring just enough which seems to allow it to happen. Perhaps this feeds into Sharks point about distractions, where the excessive desire to get it done actually results in an overactive mental state which means flow cannot be 'accessed.' I wonder whether the closer one gets to ones personal limit, the more likely you are to need to access this flow state to achieve the goal in question, or whether its all relative as TStub said; ie by getting stronger and fitter you might bump your maximum achievable level without flow up. I'm not sure those points are mutually exclusive on reflection but hey, I should be working so that will do for now!

[andy_e]

It made me think about all the heady tales of climbing dare and do ...

Apologies TT but I cannot let that eggcorn pass without noting it!

I had spotted it but wondered whether it was in tents and all.

[spidermonkey09]

Good point...maybe I've been had.

[Johnny Brown]

Dan, your 'paradox' only exists if, as you posit, flow is just eastern mysticism applied to sport. Which it isn't.

Your question would seem to me to just be the old 'authentic desire' quandary that popped up in your 'head' thread, i.e. what is the 'right' motivation for doing something pointless and dangerous?

From this and the other thread it seems like you are keen to find arguments for dismissing flow entirely. But there's quite a lot going on in that post so forgive me if I'm mistaken. Does your friend know many climbers?

[jwi]

Flow is a well documented phenomena in sport psychology and there are even several robust scales to measure the state. However since athletes' mastering of the basic skills of the sport is a pre-condition for the occurrence, I wonder how many climbers can achieve flow? In twenty years of climbing there are not many routes, if any, for which I can say that I had mastered the basic skills to climb them well.

[Yossarian]

Posted in the wrong place...

[user deactivated]

That’s a good point JB, I hadn’t really considered flow as a skill to be mastered but more as a transcendental mind state that one falls into without intention to achieve (which is another paradox). I’m not setting out to dismiss it but more question something I’m not sure I experience. As per what jwi said. Maybe my head is just to busy to ever get there? When I’m climbing near my personal limit the experience is a heady mix of intense physical effort, fear of failure on various levels and a desire for success with an acknowledgement that I need to put that in one place while I focus and ‘feel’ the  climbing. Authentic desire whatever that might be comes into it. Re the dull and egotistical- it was a climber that said that and a non climber that agreed. I thought it was interesting how sometimes the focus on personal achievement could be assisted by attempting to let that go. But maybe I’m mixing up my ‘flows’ with some sort of path to enlightenment.

[Oldmanmatt]

The UKC article lagers/shark highlighted about alcoholism in climbing (and its role in many 'classic' ascents) might be relevant here in some way?

It made me think about all the heady tales of climbing dare and do - about what I may have thought were products of mental clarity and a zen like calm - were because the protaginsits were wankered or hungover!

I once soloed a Dolomite peak, high on Morphine and alcohol, with a broken ankle.

Don’t remember much, but I reckon I had a bit of the Flow on, then (based on the amazing photos I took that day).


No flow the next day, mind.

[Will Hunt]

I'd like to hear Doylo's opinion on this subject.

[sheavi]

Flow states - I've been working on this in ordinary situations.  This comes back to elements of meditation and certain branches of Buddhism but transcends religious and cultural boundaries really.  Research with FMRI suggests what happens is the Default Mode Network gets balanced so it's not alternating back and forth mainly amongst other things. Loch Kelly is a meditation teacher who focuses on teaching this practice - he terms it Effortless Mindfulness.  Flow states can be achieved in climbing, at times, but they tend not to be the goal more a by-product.  There are plenty of high level athletes and artists who describe this state. Below is a cut and paste from a Loch Kelly course I've been doing, giving his description of flow state.

Flow States
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is the researcher who discovered "flow states," a kind of focus commonly experienced when proficient people are engaged in an activity that offers them the right level of challenge. In his investigations, people would report:

They had gone beyond their ego, that they weren't self-referential.
They felt free and open.
There was a sense of being in the now and a sense of timelessness, a sense of doing things without rush.
They experienced a sense of being at one with what they're doing. For example, being part of the instrument they're playing.
They felt a sense of ecstasy and bliss.
New, intrinsic motivation. That the activity was inherently worth doing, and worth doing well. That there was a joy in doing it.
A feeling of connection to the environment. Flow is not just a narrow absorption in a task but encompasses awareness of what's happening around you and a feeling of interconnectivity.

[user deactivated]

Effortless mindfulness sounds like an oxymoron. If only 😬

[petejh]

My so far one and only experience of a genuine flow state happened on the onsight first ascent of a winter mixed route that I estimated at grade X, so very challenging for me but just within possible. As I pulled onto the crux headwall I went into a profound out of body experience and I was watching myself from up to the right in the sky - I remember distinctly that I was watching from 'up to the right'. I was totally calm and detached watching myself. The state lasted around 10 - 15 minutes as i inched up this thin headwall searching for gear under the rime ice and shaking out the pump in my arms. The state ended when I reached the belay. Haven't experienced it before or since. I called the route 'Wide Asleep', mostly for that reason. Ian Parnell can attest to how the route climbs.

[petejh]

Regards the OP.
'Dull' - it's all relative. One person's dull is another's joy.
'Egocentric' - I think climbing does attract more than it's fair share of people who define their self-worth a bit too much by how they climb. Many/most of us can probably relate to that at some point in our lives.

I think flow state is a good reward for not trying to attain it. Deep

[mrjonathanr]

As I pulled onto the crux headwall I went into a profound out of body experience and I was watching myself from up to the right in the sky - I remember distinctly that I was watching from 'up to the right'. I was totally calm and detached watching myself.

That is pretty much how Zips described redpointibg The Mission to me - he could see himself from a point of detachment over his shoulder. Not something I have experienced myself.