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The flow paradox (Read 9385 times)

sheavi

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#25 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 07:10:22 am
Effortless mindfulness sounds like an oxymoron. If only

It does sound like an oxymoron :), but it's not. Depends if you've only been exposed to one pointed concentration i.e following the breath or open monitoring i.e more vipassana style stuff.  If you're interested check out some of Loch Kelly stuff. Its heritage is more 'advanced' Tibetan practice.  Or there are at least two other meditation techniques that avoid all effort at their essence - Heartfulness and Transcendental Meditation.  You would have to try it - these things are experiential.  Trying to achieve a state of flow, other than simply an initial intention, would negate the process.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 07:26:18 am by sheavi »

sheavi

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#26 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 07:19:00 am
It requires 'unhooking' awareness from the thinking process.

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#27 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 01:55:59 pm
I'm not sure how much of this will be any use to someone who is a bit cynical nor has any idea how to get there.

If you actually read/listen to Csikszentmihalyi he doesn't suggest anything mysterious at all. It's just complete absorption in an activity. He uses examples like a winning a Tour de France stage - so it can be sustained for long periods - but also says that you could do it watching TV if you're sufficiently engaged with what's on. It's just a word for high quality concentrating.

Put simply, the brain can only process information at a fairly low bitrate - most of the time that's taken up with processing language - conversation or your own internal dialogue, which is why you can't listen to two people at once and it's hard to listen properly and formulate a reply, or you have to turn the radio off when driving into a new city. Flow occurs when whatever you're doing occupies that brain such that the internal dialogue is relegated to watching/ commentary, or stops completely.

I think most/all of us will have experienced it without realising. There's clearly also different levels which will be more or less outside the norm and hence more or less memorable - I've had a few intense experiences of 'no-mind' lasting seconds to minutes but not to the extent of Pete's out of body headwall pitch. But that clearly isn't what Csikszentmihalyi is talking about in the main.

A simple, reliable way I've found of triggering pleasurable, low intensity flow is to run over a boulder field. Somewhere like the top of Stanage is perfect - you'll need mile or so to get there, so you can let your body get going and your mind wander a bit first. When you get to a bouldery section (you want to be fairly fresh, not hurting,  slightly downhill works great) you should find the intensity of having to place each foot precisely, lengthen and shorten strides, side-step, dodge puddles etc means the internal dialogue stops running whatever wittering bullshit it was doing. It probably won't stop but will assume more of a spectator role. Basically there isn't time for your brain to translate each nuance of the movement into language, so you let your animal brain and your muscles get on with it. I find this change in the level of engagement means a) I really enjoy it, and b) I feel like I can go faster and with more precision and less effort than on the flat - because I'm concentrating better.

Climbing can be a bit of a slow activity to reliably induce the same state. Moving fast on easy ground in the mountains works well - live the previous example, or soloing on grit can work if you drop your grade and know the routes don't hold any surprises. I've not done much redpointing but I'm sure you'd be in the right area. But faffing around with trad while your internal dialogue tries to talk you out of it is a real stopper.

For the more intense, memorable stuff I think climbing has the potential to induce very deep flow states because of the combination of real danger and problem-solving. Short intense routes like highballs or grit plug in a cam and go for it style stuff have done it for me. But I wouldn't expect some kind of woozy state where you float up Right Wall in a dream.




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#28 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 03:31:04 pm
Cheers JB!

I was waiting for that.

I don’t want to offend anyone who finds spiritual meaning in things, anything, I never have.

But, the sensations people appear to be describing, remind me intensely of the feelings I know from distance running, swimming and enduro stuff.
“Corrie-Leander” as I breath in, “Hoo-too” on the exhale.
Gibberish, but after a few minutes I have slipped into a disassociative state, where I am less aware of my body and discomfort. This lasts until I hit my limit, or pain batters it’s way through.

I daydream, mostly, through this process. Conversations with historical figures seems the most entertaining. It doesn’t seem to reduce my situational awareness too much. That seems to be on a different circuit/ subroutine.
Listening to music, has a similar effect, but very much reduces the situational awareness, for me, so I don’t.

My intense fear of heights, precludes any attempt I’ve ever made to do something similar when climbing.
Bane of my life, that fear (after eye-sight issues that stopped me doing what I had really wanted to do with my life).
I can cope with it, mostly, but it definitely holds me back from making risky moves at height.

Drugs would probably help there...  :badidea:
I chant, under my breath, as I run/walk

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#29 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 03:50:53 pm
Maybe there’s a difference between the pleasant full absorption in the activity in ‘flow’ and the seemingly ‘out of body’ mind state that I was assuming flow referred to. I read some research a few years ago that attempted to look at the objective difference in mind states e.g meditation vs hypnotic trance etc. I’ll see if I can find it. You’re right about being cynical btw it’s a real mind closer and something I often struggle with, having said that there is sometimes (not in climbing afik) a cynical commoditisation of these things

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#30 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 04:17:38 pm
I’ve been reading a great book called “Master and his Emissary” by Iain McGilchrist (neuroscientist, psychiatrist and philosopher) that goes into some of this stuff in detail.

The central argument of his book, supported by recent neuroscience expands upon the old left/right brain differences but at a much deeper level.  His thesis (that I’ve simplified massively), supported by both neuroscience and the phenomenological philosophy of Husserl, Heidegger and Hegel is that the Right hemisphere both experiences and creates the Whole with the Left experiencing and abstracting the Part.  Both work in concert and gives rise to what we experience and our sense of self and consciousnous. 

His other argument is that since the Rennaisance and Descartes, the Left Hemisphere (the Emissary of the title) has become the dominant mode of experience and presence with great advantages but also some significant consequences.

Much of what we’re talking about in this thread corresponds to the way in which our Right Hemisphere presences our sense of being in the world; less abstracted, more Gestalt and what Hegel calls Dasein.

It’s fascinating stuff and is supported by plenty of (Left Hemisphere) neuroscience and other evidence.

Well worth seeking out - I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it and I understood Hegel for the first time. 

Sheavi - I did a seminar with Loch Kelly in September.  It was really good.

sheavi

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#31 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 07:31:10 pm
Falling Down - was the seminar in the States?  I've read The Master and his Emissary.  He was in Bruce Parry's Tawai documentary discussing some of his book. Not sure if you've seen it.  From my research of Loch Kelly he seems well respected in meditation and science research circles.  I've been impressed with his techniques to date.  Cheers

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#32 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 11:01:16 am
It was in the UK (Hammersmith).  I came across him via my Psych training as he’s a practicing therapist.

I’ll check out the Bruce Parry flick - thanks for that. 

sheavi

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#33 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 11:21:58 am
  Extended Interview with Iain McGilchrist Part I (Left and Right Hemisphere) Tawai

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#34 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 12:01:53 pm
Very enjoyable and thought provoking.

Raises numerous questions in my mind though.

Are the left/right associations consistent across the population, human or mammalian at large; or is it reversed in some?

What about Chimeric individuals? Could you have someone else’s brain, running your body? Genetically speaking (does that even make sense? Or is it someone else’s body, wrapping up the brain?)
Could you, quite literally, have an argument between two genetically different brains; in the same head? Genetics must play some part in personality, after all.
Has anyone looked for correlation between Chimeraism and mental health issues?

I don’t know anything like enough about this, which is irritating. But I know of at least one individual who has a distinct colouration change, of their skin, between their left and right sides. This was found to be a chimeric feature and (irrc) the skin is a single organ (?), suggesting that it might be possible for different areas of the brain to be genetically distinct?

I know, I know.

Google it.

I will, but anyone know?

Edit:

I forgot to take the piss.

Does this mean I can refer to the current Government as a bunch of Left Brain wankers?




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#35 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 12:21:12 pm
Quote
You’re right about being cynical btw it’s a real mind closer

I like to think I'm both open minded and cynical. I'll give any new information a hearing while forensically examining it for weakness. But I think it's really important to be aware of what your biases are and subjecting generally accepted truisms to the same treatment. Where the workings of the brain are concerned I'm not convinced there are that many real facts, more fragments of evidence surrounded by a lot of supposition. So I'd be more inclined to give theories in this area the benefit of the doubt, as many will contain elements of truth without being the whole story.

I think it's easy to forget that some areas of science are far advanced compared to others. It always blows my mind that my Dad watched the moon landings as a schoolboy, but wasn't taught plate tectonics.

Matt - I think without context most people would assume my hands belonged to different people.

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#36 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 12:34:21 pm
I understood Hegel for the first time. 

Never thought I'd see that claim committed to text. I might have to find this miraculous book!

sheavi

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#37 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 12:35:30 pm
Surely skeptical not cynical?

Anyway left and right asymmetries have been detected in both vertebrates and invertebrates at least according to this -

Divided Brains: The Biology and Behaviour of Brain Asymmetries 2013
by Lesley J. Rogers  (Author), Giorgio Vallortigara (Author), Richard J. Andrew (Author).  I've not read the research.

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#39 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 01:27:15 pm
Quote
You’re right about being cynical btw it’s a real mind closer

I like to think I'm both open minded and cynical. I'll give any new information a hearing while forensically examining it for weakness. But I think it's really important to be aware of what your biases are and subjecting generally accepted truisms to the same treatment. Where the workings of the brain are concerned I'm not convinced there are that many real facts, more fragments of evidence surrounded by a lot of supposition. So I'd be more inclined to give theories in this area the benefit of the doubt, as many will contain elements of truth without being the whole story.

I think it's easy to forget that some areas of science are far advanced compared to others. It always blows my mind that my Dad watched the moon landings as a schoolboy, but wasn't taught plate tectonics.

Matt - I think without context most people would assume my hands belonged to different people.

A skeptic with a cynical edge 😉

sheavi

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#41 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 02:35:48 pm
I'm pretty sure Ondra talked about flow in his Enormocast interview. I believe he said something along the lines of normally climbing in a form of flow state but needing to break out of this state and to be very focused and aware whilst executing the crux of a redpoint but, in the case of Silence, stayed in the flow state for the crux and seemed surprised that had worked out.

That description depends on how "flow" is defined though........

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#42 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 07:15:26 pm
It's been known for decades that the idea that one half of the brain is responsible for one type of thinking is almost entirely incorrect. At best, a metaphor.

To be fair to McGilchrist he does dismantle the L Brain R Brain myth right upfront.  I did say my explanation was massively simplified.  It’s much more nuanced and doesn’t refer to ‘thinking’ but with modes of perception and being (hence all the phenomenology). 

Anyway we’re way off topic now - sorry Dan!

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#43 Re: The flow paradox
January 17, 2019, 07:10:28 am
It's been known for decades that the idea that one half of the brain is responsible for one type of thinking is almost entirely incorrect. At best, a metaphor.

I had a quick look at this article but stopped when I got to this weird paragraph

‘The left hemisphere plays a major role in grammar and decoding literal meaning whereas the right plays a role in understanding verbal metaphors and decoding indirect or implied meaning. And so forth. Hardly the sort of stuff that can guide your life!’

How strange, this is exactly the sort of stuff that guides your life.

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#44 Re: The flow paradox
January 17, 2019, 08:31:53 am
Also the two guys that wrote that bloody awful article were promoting their book called 'top brain bottom brain' the new left / right dichotomy? Haha

sheavi

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#45 Re: The flow paradox
January 17, 2019, 08:49:42 am
It's been known for decades that the idea that one half of the brain is responsible for one type of thinking is almost entirely incorrect. At best, a metaphor.

I had a quick look at this article but stopped when I got to this weird paragraph

‘The left hemisphere plays a major role in grammar and decoding literal meaning whereas the right plays a role in understanding verbal metaphors and decoding indirect or implied meaning. And so forth. Hardly the sort of stuff that can guide your life!’

How strange, this is exactly the sort of stuff that guides your life.

 :yes:

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#46 Re: The flow paradox
January 20, 2019, 01:16:28 am
This is all great stuff.

My all time favourite McGilchrist video :




In this sense, I think that accessing flow, is akin to tapping into "the sacred gift" of the intuitive mind.

You know that feeling you get when somehow, you seem to reach for and find that crucial pebble without thinking about it.

There are really interesting ideas from Alexander Technique on "retardation" and avoiding "end-gaining".

In climbing, we very, very typically try to do things before we have the tools available. We try to end-gain, in an attempt to reach out to the finish line too soon. When we do this, we work against ourselves, compromising form/function etc.

In this context, the idea of flow, is a way of allowing all of our resources to be available to us; we "get out of our own way" and let ourselves "just do it"/execute.

If you have confidence in your abilities, it's far easier to let it all just happen, but again, very often in climbing we find ourselves reaching beyond what we are at that point.

Perhaps when we climb bold routes - where it isn't the physical demands that are the significant obstacle - we find ourselves performing from a pre-practiced skill set, so it's perhaps more available.

To access flow, you need to be able to accept and trust your current level.

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#47 Re: The flow paradox
January 20, 2019, 02:09:57 pm
Great video Dave and something to ponder over in your post for sure. Hope you're well.

Cheers
Carwyn

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#48 Re: The flow paradox
January 22, 2019, 11:44:03 am
Really interesting thread.

I have rarely if ever experienced a flow state in climbing, usually because I (like Matt) have a pretty fierce fear of heights and find that this is often preying on my awareness. An onsight well within my limit but in a spectacular position might achieve it, though I would sometimes think 'I'm really enjoying it'. Once or twice on redpoints I have had the feeling that everything just came together perfectly and I climbed without really thinking about it. Except usually near the top I'll start thinking, 'concentrate, be careful'.

I have definitely experienced flow in creative writing, in drawing, and even at work, trying to solve a problem. It's that feeling of being totally absorbed in the task and not really aware of time passing. Also does reading count? I love reading and can get totally absorbed in it to the point where I don't really hear if people are talking to me. Much to the annoyance of my wife.

As you'll see from the above, I don't believe there is anything mystical about it, it is an optimal brain state where capability matches desire. Yet the goal of a lot of mysticism is to achieve this brain state and escape from the cluttered mindset of humdrum daily experience.

EDIT: While it may be debunked psychologically, the Book 'Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain' by Betty Edwards had a good trick for getting into a flow state when drawing I thought. Take a picture you want to copy. Turn it upside down. Now copy it. This stops the 'mental shortcut' part of the brain from getting involved 'I am drawing a rhino, a rhino looks like this', and forces you to actually focus on the task in hand, observing where the lines go and trying to replicate them.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 12:13:47 pm by Rocksteady »

DAVETHOMAS90

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#49 Re: The flow paradox
January 22, 2019, 01:16:23 pm


Ceci n'est pas un Rhinoceros  ;D

Good post Rock Steady


 

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