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The flow paradox (Read 9615 times)

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The flow paradox
January 13, 2019, 10:03:45 pm
‘You’ve got to want it but not want it at the same time’. A friend said to me recently that he thought climbers were either dull or egocentric or a combination of both. This seemed to fit in with a non climbing friends impression of a climber talking about their sport, they did a pretty accurate ramble about training, process, psyche etc without ever having touched rock. I’ve thought about this recently and how it links in with the concept of ‘flow’ an idea in part borrowed from eastern religious practice (I think) which to some extent involves an altered state of consciousness and the dissolution of the ego. The problem being that the performance based context in which it’s currently used seems at odds with those ideas. In Buddhism I think there is a state of being ‘dharma driven’ in which the person strives so hard for enlightenment that they achieve a kind of false insight. This seems to me to fit well with the idea of flow and goal driven sport.

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#1 Re: The flow paradox
January 13, 2019, 10:16:00 pm
I attempted to read the main text on the subject Flow in Sports https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Flow_in_Sports.html?id=Jak4A8rEZawC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y I think it mentions flow being similar to states attained by mystics, but not it being based on any Eastern Philosphy. Sorry if this spoils your grumpy performance driven climbing grump of day  ;D

IIRC flow is more likely to occur when the level of the challenge coincides with the level of the sportsperson’s ability. If the challenge is too easy then it will be boring, if the challenge is to difficult then it will be overwhelming. As such it seems that flow could occur just as easily in mid grade ledge shuffling as top grade bouldering.


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#2 Re: The flow paradox
January 13, 2019, 10:24:50 pm
No* grump here mate honest 😂

Seriously though, there’s a fair bit of mysticism in eastern religious practice. That text just borrows from it and links it to performance, hence the paradox. 

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#3 Re: The flow paradox
January 13, 2019, 10:42:08 pm
I remember it the other way around (I’m not going to reread it as it was tedious af), that they had identified similar mind states that occurred across sports occasionally during great performances, and that these mind states were similar to what might try and attain during Sufi Whirling or whatever.

I think the idea of learning valuable lessons from training and performance (independent of the chosen past time) that have use in a wider context is a fascinating somewhat linked subject.

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#4 Re: The flow paradox
January 13, 2019, 11:00:28 pm
Hi Dan - some good discussion of the mental states around climbing lately, thanks for kicking them off.

I'm not sure why you think there is a paradox in utilising flow (or trying to foster it anyway - it's pretty elusive) as a way of improving performance. Ego can impede good climbing performance, such as having fears around falling off in front of people or anticipating damage to our idea of our own ability, so if flow is attained (in part) by distancing oneself from one's ego, then it will likely be helpful. The form may be very similar to that of Eastern spiritual / religious practice, but the function does not have to be the same.

I'm not sure if this is a good example of a similar form-function difference, but how about the reasons that some people self-harm? Some people use SH for self-punishment; but others use it to feel something (i.e. anything) if they are dissociated [Sorry if these seems a totally random or inaccessible example, the target audience is probably just Dan, but I'm pretty sure he'll know what I'm on about]. The form is identical, but the function is completely different. As with using flow-like states to attain enlightenment (dissolution of the ego being one part of this, so flow as the end in itself); or with using flow-states to enhance climbing / athletic performance (dissolution of the ego being a means to an end).

A friend said to me recently that he thought climbers were either dull or egocentric or a combination of both. This seemed to fit in with a non climbing friends impression of a climber talking about their sport, they did a pretty accurate ramble about training, process, psyche etc without ever having touched rock.

I don't understand how this links to flow?

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#5 Re: The flow paradox
January 13, 2019, 11:15:42 pm
A friend said to me recently that he thought climbers were either dull or egocentric or a combination of both. This seemed to fit in with a non climbing friends impression of a climber talking about their sport, they did a pretty accurate ramble about training, process, psyche etc without ever having touched rock.

Seems like a limited view of not just climbers, but any human's relationship with an activity that means a lot to them. You could (but probably wouldn't?) draw the same conclusion from a musician explaining how they practice scales on an instrument, how they break a piece down into component parts, how they prepare mentally for a performance...

All that is an insight into the process, and into the details which people find easiest to talk about, but it says little about the moment they strive for, and all the ways that moment affects them. Surely there's more to those moments and the people who seek them. Something more than dullness and ego?

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#6 Re: The flow paradox
January 13, 2019, 11:32:02 pm
Huh a well considered post Reeve, damn it! 😉

I think you describe the paradox pretty well there. To achieve this desired state the outcome becomes unimportant and focus on the immediate experience everything, yet the drive to achieve it is based in wanting a particular outcome e.g. success.

In every loss there is gain. As in every gain there is loss. -Master Po quote from Kung Fu 😂

This relates to my friends assertion that climbers are dull and egocentric in that the singular focus on climbing and in this case the desire to achieve a ‘flow state’ to attain ones goals is this.

I agree about the same form different function btw but not wholly. On the subject you mention I think it’s to do the distress caused by poor intergration of ourselves e.g. driven by a lack of balance, with the aim of managing that somehow.


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#7 Re: The flow paradox
January 13, 2019, 11:34:30 pm
R-man, I agree it’s not something I agree with but just linked me thinking about this topic.

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#8 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 01:53:40 am

In every loss there is gain. As in every gain there is loss. -Master Po quote from Kung Fu

You never gain something but that you lose something. Henry David Thoreau.

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#9 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 08:48:11 am
Am I allowed to use the notion of spectrum?  :jab:

If so there is reflection and just thinking at one end and an immersive doing and being totally involved at the other end which is the optimal performance state which I would think of as flow as I’m not very deep innit

From a practical point of view one of the key challenges in reaching this state is sidelining distractions/inhibitors whether that’s ego or someone whistling


« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:26:11 am by shark »

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#10 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 09:23:19 am
The UKC article lagers/shark highlighted about alcoholism in climbing (and its role in many 'classic' ascents) might be relevant here in some way?

It made me think about all the heady tales of climbing dare and do - about what I may have thought were products of mental clarity and a zen like calm - were because the protaginsits were wankered or hungover! 

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#11 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 09:43:07 am

It made me think about all the heady tales of climbing dare and do ...

Apologies TT but I cannot let that eggcorn pass without noting it!

Back on topic, I think R-Man has it spot on. Superficially of course a climber going on about a certain route/problem, obsessing about training is egotistical and boring, but the same goes for lots of sportspeople and indeed anyone who cares passionately about their job, or hobby, or whatever gets them going. Anyone who has ever sat drinking with surfers would testify to this!

My thoughts on flow from personal experience are how the times I have experienced it I have stopped caring just enough which seems to allow it to happen. Perhaps this feeds into Sharks point about distractions, where the excessive desire to get it done actually results in an overactive mental state which means flow cannot be 'accessed.' I wonder whether the closer one gets to ones personal limit, the more likely you are to need to access this flow state to achieve the goal in question, or whether its all relative as TStub said; ie by getting stronger and fitter you might bump your maximum achievable level without flow up. I'm not sure those points are mutually exclusive on reflection but hey, I should be working so that will do for now!


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#12 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 09:47:11 am

It made me think about all the heady tales of climbing dare and do ...

Apologies TT but I cannot let that eggcorn pass without noting it!

I had spotted it but wondered whether it was in tents and all.

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#13 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 10:57:38 am
Good point...maybe I've been had.

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#14 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 11:01:54 am
Dan, your 'paradox' only exists if, as you posit, flow is just eastern mysticism applied to sport. Which it isn't.

Your question would seem to me to just be the old 'authentic desire' quandary that popped up in your 'head' thread, i.e. what is the 'right' motivation for doing something pointless and dangerous?

From this and the other thread it seems like you are keen to find arguments for dismissing flow entirely. But there's quite a lot going on in that post so forgive me if I'm mistaken. Does your friend know many climbers?

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#15 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 12:49:08 pm
Flow is a well documented phenomena in sport psychology and there are even several robust scales to measure the state. However since athletes' mastering of the basic skills of the sport is a pre-condition for the occurrence, I wonder how many climbers can achieve flow? In twenty years of climbing there are not many routes, if any, for which I can say that I had mastered the basic skills to climb them well.

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#16 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 12:57:43 pm
Posted in the wrong place...

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#17 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 01:05:13 pm
That’s a good point JB, I hadn’t really considered flow as a skill to be mastered but more as a transcendental mind state that one falls into without intention to achieve (which is another paradox). I’m not setting out to dismiss it but more question something I’m not sure I experience. As per what jwi said. Maybe my head is just to busy to ever get there? When I’m climbing near my personal limit the experience is a heady mix of intense physical effort, fear of failure on various levels and a desire for success with an acknowledgement that I need to put that in one place while I focus and ‘feel’ the  climbing. Authentic desire whatever that might be comes into it. Re the dull and egotistical- it was a climber that said that and a non climber that agreed. I thought it was interesting how sometimes the focus on personal achievement could be assisted by attempting to let that go. But maybe I’m mixing up my ‘flows’ with some sort of path to enlightenment.

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#18 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 03:51:32 pm
The UKC article lagers/shark highlighted about alcoholism in climbing (and its role in many 'classic' ascents) might be relevant here in some way?

It made me think about all the heady tales of climbing dare and do - about what I may have thought were products of mental clarity and a zen like calm - were because the protaginsits were wankered or hungover!

I once soloed a Dolomite peak, high on Morphine and alcohol, with a broken ankle.

Don’t remember much, but I reckon I had a bit of the Flow on, then (based on the amazing photos I took that day).


No flow the next day, mind.

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#19 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 06:49:36 pm
I'd like to hear Doylo's opinion on this subject.

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#20 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 08:57:27 pm
Flow states - I've been working on this in ordinary situations.  This comes back to elements of meditation and certain branches of Buddhism but transcends religious and cultural boundaries really.  Research with FMRI suggests what happens is the Default Mode Network gets balanced so it's not alternating back and forth mainly amongst other things. Loch Kelly is a meditation teacher who focuses on teaching this practice - he terms it Effortless Mindfulness.  Flow states can be achieved in climbing, at times, but they tend not to be the goal more a by-product.  There are plenty of high level athletes and artists who describe this state. Below is a cut and paste from a Loch Kelly course I've been doing, giving his description of flow state.

Flow States
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is the researcher who discovered "flow states," a kind of focus commonly experienced when proficient people are engaged in an activity that offers them the right level of challenge. In his investigations, people would report:

They had gone beyond their ego, that they weren't self-referential.
They felt free and open.
There was a sense of being in the now and a sense of timelessness, a sense of doing things without rush.
They experienced a sense of being at one with what they're doing. For example, being part of the instrument they're playing.
They felt a sense of ecstasy and bliss.
New, intrinsic motivation. That the activity was inherently worth doing, and worth doing well. That there was a joy in doing it.
A feeling of connection to the environment. Flow is not just a narrow absorption in a task but encompasses awareness of what's happening around you and a feeling of interconnectivity.

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#21 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 09:45:07 pm
Effortless mindfulness sounds like an oxymoron. If only 😬

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#22 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 10:49:53 pm
My so far one and only experience of a genuine flow state happened on the onsight first ascent of a winter mixed route that I estimated at grade X, so very challenging for me but just within possible. As I pulled onto the crux headwall I went into a profound out of body experience and I was watching myself from up to the right in the sky - I remember distinctly that I was watching from 'up to the right'. I was totally calm and detached watching myself. The state lasted around 10 - 15 minutes as i inched up this thin headwall searching for gear under the rime ice and shaking out the pump in my arms. The state ended when I reached the belay. Haven't experienced it before or since. I called the route 'Wide Asleep', mostly for that reason. Ian Parnell can attest to how the route climbs.

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#23 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 11:04:43 pm
Regards the OP.
'Dull' - it's all relative. One person's dull is another's joy.
'Egocentric' - I think climbing does attract more than it's fair share of people who define their self-worth a bit too much by how they climb. Many/most of us can probably relate to that at some point in our lives.

I think flow state is a good reward for not trying to attain it. Deep :-\

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#24 Re: The flow paradox
January 14, 2019, 11:09:47 pm
As I pulled onto the crux headwall I went into a profound out of body experience and I was watching myself from up to the right in the sky - I remember distinctly that I was watching from 'up to the right'. I was totally calm and detached watching myself.

That is pretty much how Zips described redpointibg The Mission to me - he could see himself from a point of detachment over his shoulder. Not something I have experienced myself.

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#25 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 07:10:22 am
Effortless mindfulness sounds like an oxymoron. If only

It does sound like an oxymoron :), but it's not. Depends if you've only been exposed to one pointed concentration i.e following the breath or open monitoring i.e more vipassana style stuff.  If you're interested check out some of Loch Kelly stuff. Its heritage is more 'advanced' Tibetan practice.  Or there are at least two other meditation techniques that avoid all effort at their essence - Heartfulness and Transcendental Meditation.  You would have to try it - these things are experiential.  Trying to achieve a state of flow, other than simply an initial intention, would negate the process.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 07:26:18 am by sheavi »

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#26 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 07:19:00 am
It requires 'unhooking' awareness from the thinking process.

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#27 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 01:55:59 pm
I'm not sure how much of this will be any use to someone who is a bit cynical nor has any idea how to get there.

If you actually read/listen to Csikszentmihalyi he doesn't suggest anything mysterious at all. It's just complete absorption in an activity. He uses examples like a winning a Tour de France stage - so it can be sustained for long periods - but also says that you could do it watching TV if you're sufficiently engaged with what's on. It's just a word for high quality concentrating.

Put simply, the brain can only process information at a fairly low bitrate - most of the time that's taken up with processing language - conversation or your own internal dialogue, which is why you can't listen to two people at once and it's hard to listen properly and formulate a reply, or you have to turn the radio off when driving into a new city. Flow occurs when whatever you're doing occupies that brain such that the internal dialogue is relegated to watching/ commentary, or stops completely.

I think most/all of us will have experienced it without realising. There's clearly also different levels which will be more or less outside the norm and hence more or less memorable - I've had a few intense experiences of 'no-mind' lasting seconds to minutes but not to the extent of Pete's out of body headwall pitch. But that clearly isn't what Csikszentmihalyi is talking about in the main.

A simple, reliable way I've found of triggering pleasurable, low intensity flow is to run over a boulder field. Somewhere like the top of Stanage is perfect - you'll need mile or so to get there, so you can let your body get going and your mind wander a bit first. When you get to a bouldery section (you want to be fairly fresh, not hurting,  slightly downhill works great) you should find the intensity of having to place each foot precisely, lengthen and shorten strides, side-step, dodge puddles etc means the internal dialogue stops running whatever wittering bullshit it was doing. It probably won't stop but will assume more of a spectator role. Basically there isn't time for your brain to translate each nuance of the movement into language, so you let your animal brain and your muscles get on with it. I find this change in the level of engagement means a) I really enjoy it, and b) I feel like I can go faster and with more precision and less effort than on the flat - because I'm concentrating better.

Climbing can be a bit of a slow activity to reliably induce the same state. Moving fast on easy ground in the mountains works well - live the previous example, or soloing on grit can work if you drop your grade and know the routes don't hold any surprises. I've not done much redpointing but I'm sure you'd be in the right area. But faffing around with trad while your internal dialogue tries to talk you out of it is a real stopper.

For the more intense, memorable stuff I think climbing has the potential to induce very deep flow states because of the combination of real danger and problem-solving. Short intense routes like highballs or grit plug in a cam and go for it style stuff have done it for me. But I wouldn't expect some kind of woozy state where you float up Right Wall in a dream.




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#28 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 03:31:04 pm
Cheers JB!

I was waiting for that.

I don’t want to offend anyone who finds spiritual meaning in things, anything, I never have.

But, the sensations people appear to be describing, remind me intensely of the feelings I know from distance running, swimming and enduro stuff.
“Corrie-Leander” as I breath in, “Hoo-too” on the exhale.
Gibberish, but after a few minutes I have slipped into a disassociative state, where I am less aware of my body and discomfort. This lasts until I hit my limit, or pain batters it’s way through.

I daydream, mostly, through this process. Conversations with historical figures seems the most entertaining. It doesn’t seem to reduce my situational awareness too much. That seems to be on a different circuit/ subroutine.
Listening to music, has a similar effect, but very much reduces the situational awareness, for me, so I don’t.

My intense fear of heights, precludes any attempt I’ve ever made to do something similar when climbing.
Bane of my life, that fear (after eye-sight issues that stopped me doing what I had really wanted to do with my life).
I can cope with it, mostly, but it definitely holds me back from making risky moves at height.

Drugs would probably help there...  :badidea:
I chant, under my breath, as I run/walk

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#29 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 03:50:53 pm
Maybe there’s a difference between the pleasant full absorption in the activity in ‘flow’ and the seemingly ‘out of body’ mind state that I was assuming flow referred to. I read some research a few years ago that attempted to look at the objective difference in mind states e.g meditation vs hypnotic trance etc. I’ll see if I can find it. You’re right about being cynical btw it’s a real mind closer and something I often struggle with, having said that there is sometimes (not in climbing afik) a cynical commoditisation of these things

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#30 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 04:17:38 pm
I’ve been reading a great book called “Master and his Emissary” by Iain McGilchrist (neuroscientist, psychiatrist and philosopher) that goes into some of this stuff in detail.

The central argument of his book, supported by recent neuroscience expands upon the old left/right brain differences but at a much deeper level.  His thesis (that I’ve simplified massively), supported by both neuroscience and the phenomenological philosophy of Husserl, Heidegger and Hegel is that the Right hemisphere both experiences and creates the Whole with the Left experiencing and abstracting the Part.  Both work in concert and gives rise to what we experience and our sense of self and consciousnous. 

His other argument is that since the Rennaisance and Descartes, the Left Hemisphere (the Emissary of the title) has become the dominant mode of experience and presence with great advantages but also some significant consequences.

Much of what we’re talking about in this thread corresponds to the way in which our Right Hemisphere presences our sense of being in the world; less abstracted, more Gestalt and what Hegel calls Dasein.

It’s fascinating stuff and is supported by plenty of (Left Hemisphere) neuroscience and other evidence.

Well worth seeking out - I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it and I understood Hegel for the first time. 

Sheavi - I did a seminar with Loch Kelly in September.  It was really good.

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#31 Re: The flow paradox
January 15, 2019, 07:31:10 pm
Falling Down - was the seminar in the States?  I've read The Master and his Emissary.  He was in Bruce Parry's Tawai documentary discussing some of his book. Not sure if you've seen it.  From my research of Loch Kelly he seems well respected in meditation and science research circles.  I've been impressed with his techniques to date.  Cheers

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#32 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 11:01:16 am
It was in the UK (Hammersmith).  I came across him via my Psych training as he’s a practicing therapist.

I’ll check out the Bruce Parry flick - thanks for that. 

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#33 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 11:21:58 am
  Extended Interview with Iain McGilchrist Part I (Left and Right Hemisphere) Tawai

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#34 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 12:01:53 pm
Very enjoyable and thought provoking.

Raises numerous questions in my mind though.

Are the left/right associations consistent across the population, human or mammalian at large; or is it reversed in some?

What about Chimeric individuals? Could you have someone else’s brain, running your body? Genetically speaking (does that even make sense? Or is it someone else’s body, wrapping up the brain?)
Could you, quite literally, have an argument between two genetically different brains; in the same head? Genetics must play some part in personality, after all.
Has anyone looked for correlation between Chimeraism and mental health issues?

I don’t know anything like enough about this, which is irritating. But I know of at least one individual who has a distinct colouration change, of their skin, between their left and right sides. This was found to be a chimeric feature and (irrc) the skin is a single organ (?), suggesting that it might be possible for different areas of the brain to be genetically distinct?

I know, I know.

Google it.

I will, but anyone know?

Edit:

I forgot to take the piss.

Does this mean I can refer to the current Government as a bunch of Left Brain wankers?




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#35 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 12:21:12 pm
Quote
You’re right about being cynical btw it’s a real mind closer

I like to think I'm both open minded and cynical. I'll give any new information a hearing while forensically examining it for weakness. But I think it's really important to be aware of what your biases are and subjecting generally accepted truisms to the same treatment. Where the workings of the brain are concerned I'm not convinced there are that many real facts, more fragments of evidence surrounded by a lot of supposition. So I'd be more inclined to give theories in this area the benefit of the doubt, as many will contain elements of truth without being the whole story.

I think it's easy to forget that some areas of science are far advanced compared to others. It always blows my mind that my Dad watched the moon landings as a schoolboy, but wasn't taught plate tectonics.

Matt - I think without context most people would assume my hands belonged to different people.

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#36 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 12:34:21 pm
I understood Hegel for the first time. 

Never thought I'd see that claim committed to text. I might have to find this miraculous book!

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#37 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 12:35:30 pm
Surely skeptical not cynical?

Anyway left and right asymmetries have been detected in both vertebrates and invertebrates at least according to this -

Divided Brains: The Biology and Behaviour of Brain Asymmetries 2013
by Lesley J. Rogers  (Author), Giorgio Vallortigara (Author), Richard J. Andrew (Author).  I've not read the research.

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#39 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 01:27:15 pm
Quote
You’re right about being cynical btw it’s a real mind closer

I like to think I'm both open minded and cynical. I'll give any new information a hearing while forensically examining it for weakness. But I think it's really important to be aware of what your biases are and subjecting generally accepted truisms to the same treatment. Where the workings of the brain are concerned I'm not convinced there are that many real facts, more fragments of evidence surrounded by a lot of supposition. So I'd be more inclined to give theories in this area the benefit of the doubt, as many will contain elements of truth without being the whole story.

I think it's easy to forget that some areas of science are far advanced compared to others. It always blows my mind that my Dad watched the moon landings as a schoolboy, but wasn't taught plate tectonics.

Matt - I think without context most people would assume my hands belonged to different people.

A skeptic with a cynical edge 😉

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#41 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 02:35:48 pm
I'm pretty sure Ondra talked about flow in his Enormocast interview. I believe he said something along the lines of normally climbing in a form of flow state but needing to break out of this state and to be very focused and aware whilst executing the crux of a redpoint but, in the case of Silence, stayed in the flow state for the crux and seemed surprised that had worked out.

That description depends on how "flow" is defined though........

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#42 Re: The flow paradox
January 16, 2019, 07:15:26 pm
It's been known for decades that the idea that one half of the brain is responsible for one type of thinking is almost entirely incorrect. At best, a metaphor.

To be fair to McGilchrist he does dismantle the L Brain R Brain myth right upfront.  I did say my explanation was massively simplified.  It’s much more nuanced and doesn’t refer to ‘thinking’ but with modes of perception and being (hence all the phenomenology). 

Anyway we’re way off topic now - sorry Dan!

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#43 Re: The flow paradox
January 17, 2019, 07:10:28 am
It's been known for decades that the idea that one half of the brain is responsible for one type of thinking is almost entirely incorrect. At best, a metaphor.

I had a quick look at this article but stopped when I got to this weird paragraph

‘The left hemisphere plays a major role in grammar and decoding literal meaning whereas the right plays a role in understanding verbal metaphors and decoding indirect or implied meaning. And so forth. Hardly the sort of stuff that can guide your life!’

How strange, this is exactly the sort of stuff that guides your life.

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#44 Re: The flow paradox
January 17, 2019, 08:31:53 am
Also the two guys that wrote that bloody awful article were promoting their book called 'top brain bottom brain' the new left / right dichotomy? Haha

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#45 Re: The flow paradox
January 17, 2019, 08:49:42 am
It's been known for decades that the idea that one half of the brain is responsible for one type of thinking is almost entirely incorrect. At best, a metaphor.

I had a quick look at this article but stopped when I got to this weird paragraph

‘The left hemisphere plays a major role in grammar and decoding literal meaning whereas the right plays a role in understanding verbal metaphors and decoding indirect or implied meaning. And so forth. Hardly the sort of stuff that can guide your life!’

How strange, this is exactly the sort of stuff that guides your life.

 :yes:

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#46 Re: The flow paradox
January 20, 2019, 01:16:28 am
This is all great stuff.

My all time favourite McGilchrist video :




In this sense, I think that accessing flow, is akin to tapping into "the sacred gift" of the intuitive mind.

You know that feeling you get when somehow, you seem to reach for and find that crucial pebble without thinking about it.

There are really interesting ideas from Alexander Technique on "retardation" and avoiding "end-gaining".

In climbing, we very, very typically try to do things before we have the tools available. We try to end-gain, in an attempt to reach out to the finish line too soon. When we do this, we work against ourselves, compromising form/function etc.

In this context, the idea of flow, is a way of allowing all of our resources to be available to us; we "get out of our own way" and let ourselves "just do it"/execute.

If you have confidence in your abilities, it's far easier to let it all just happen, but again, very often in climbing we find ourselves reaching beyond what we are at that point.

Perhaps when we climb bold routes - where it isn't the physical demands that are the significant obstacle - we find ourselves performing from a pre-practiced skill set, so it's perhaps more available.

To access flow, you need to be able to accept and trust your current level.

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#47 Re: The flow paradox
January 20, 2019, 02:09:57 pm
Great video Dave and something to ponder over in your post for sure. Hope you're well.

Cheers
Carwyn

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#48 Re: The flow paradox
January 22, 2019, 11:44:03 am
Really interesting thread.

I have rarely if ever experienced a flow state in climbing, usually because I (like Matt) have a pretty fierce fear of heights and find that this is often preying on my awareness. An onsight well within my limit but in a spectacular position might achieve it, though I would sometimes think 'I'm really enjoying it'. Once or twice on redpoints I have had the feeling that everything just came together perfectly and I climbed without really thinking about it. Except usually near the top I'll start thinking, 'concentrate, be careful'.

I have definitely experienced flow in creative writing, in drawing, and even at work, trying to solve a problem. It's that feeling of being totally absorbed in the task and not really aware of time passing. Also does reading count? I love reading and can get totally absorbed in it to the point where I don't really hear if people are talking to me. Much to the annoyance of my wife.

As you'll see from the above, I don't believe there is anything mystical about it, it is an optimal brain state where capability matches desire. Yet the goal of a lot of mysticism is to achieve this brain state and escape from the cluttered mindset of humdrum daily experience.

EDIT: While it may be debunked psychologically, the Book 'Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain' by Betty Edwards had a good trick for getting into a flow state when drawing I thought. Take a picture you want to copy. Turn it upside down. Now copy it. This stops the 'mental shortcut' part of the brain from getting involved 'I am drawing a rhino, a rhino looks like this', and forces you to actually focus on the task in hand, observing where the lines go and trying to replicate them.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 12:13:47 pm by Rocksteady »

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#49 Re: The flow paradox
January 22, 2019, 01:16:23 pm


Ceci n'est pas un Rhinoceros  ;D

Good post Rock Steady


 

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