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Developing a climbing ‘head’ (Read 8150 times)

andy popp

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#25 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 04, 2019, 10:39:40 pm
I’m definitely not talking about bold and reckless here. Although that’s the side of things people are focussing on. What I said could equally equate to the lowest of low ball boulder problems.

I've largely been talking about situations in which there is genuine risk, epitomised by soloing onsight.

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#26 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 04, 2019, 10:52:48 pm
I’ve just read Dave’s post about awareness and fear (sorry Dave missed it earlier). I guess in response to that and Adam’s point about not mentioning ‘flow’ is that it’s not that I don’t think transcendent states of consciousness aren’t important or valuable. But that basic questions surrounding conscious and unconscious motives (insight) may or may not lead to better decisions being made and avoid the exact situation of the gibbering go for it that Adam pointed out. 

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#27 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 04, 2019, 11:08:14 pm
Ps. I don’t have any bold projects or motives that ‘sparked’ the post. My motive was to get a bit of concensus about things that may help develop a sound climbing head and put them in an essay online here. So it was more of a survey of opinion I guess. Thanks for all the replies. I’m much less about ‘performance’ these days and as Adam pointed out often find this is to the detriment of overall climbing experience. Balance is important and to borrow the demi god ondra’s words the difference between conquering a climb and going rock climbing.

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#28 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 12:48:43 am
In terms of explanation, I started climbing in the Avon Gorge and boldness was just part of climbing from the beginning.

Depends on the individual's reaction to the situation as much as to the physical reality of it. I too did a lot on my early climbing at Avon, and in my case it left with far too much of a "leader must not fall" attitude that did me no good elsewhere on more normally protected crags.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#29 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 04:54:42 am
Hi folks.

Totally relate to Andy P's posts - and had a major chuckle about the sandbag solo! Also cut my teeth climbing at places like Avon.

The "climbing space" was something that evolved and expanded with practice. Finding a "gap" between "feelings" and "action" on the rock face gave me something of an antidote to other difficult things. It gave me a place where I could enjoy being what I already was, instead of meeting external demands.

Switching the head off is a nonsense.

I had to cycle to the Foundry late tonight, and my legs got pumped. While I kept the hammer down, it became absurdly obvious that you develop a climbing head in the way that you develop a climbing body.

Being fit isn't necessarily about not getting pumped, it's about performing better when you do, or rather, you get fitter by getting pumped more regularly.

"A climbing head" is what we improve when we get scared more regularly, but the question often gets asked in a way which implies not getting scared.

When we're unpracticed we think being scared = something bad is about to happen. The gift of the sort of unplanned epic Andy alludes to, is that (hopefully!) we get to learn that this isn't the case, and we become less reactive to feeing scared.

I got to the top of the Wave at the Foundry, and realised I'm not very practiced at the moment! :lol:

I think it's easy to think that being scared is a barrier to the goals/routes you want to climb. I think that feeling scared was just a more frequent part of my climbing than it is now.

Put simply, it's not getting scared that's the barrier, it's not getting scared enough.

Better to solo Crescent Arete, Breadline, Archangel without pads, than topping Ulyses above a stack.

Other than that, I do agree with Pete's remarks about dealing with irrational fear, although even in that case it doesn't necessarily eradicate the fear, but gives us permission to "go for it" while feeling scared, and maybe lob off a few times.

Edit. Feeling scared while climbing, helped me understand what "negative thoughts" I could let go of, rather than block out. It helped me process some of the fear I'd felt elsewhere. Fear often causes us to create very powerful associations.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 05:10:35 am by DAVETHOMAS90 »

DAVETHOMAS90

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#30 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 05:25:24 am
Good thread BTW Dan.

Apparently simple answers don't imply a simple topic.

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#31 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 07:39:27 am
Cheers Dave, really appreciate your openness and invaluable insight! Ok great so I’ve got a few vague subheadings now

Climbing and beliefs of self and others

Motivations and drives in climbing ‘the unconscious’

Altered states of consciousness (flow, the detached mind, feeling unreal etc)

Competence and technique

Rationalising the irrational

Personal insight and decision making ‘weighing up risk’

Strategies for managing anxiety and fear ‘how to best cope’

Practiced boldness is it an operant conditioning thing.


What do you guys think? I could research it more and write something?


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#32 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 10:24:14 am
I'd prefer a short film in an avant garde style.

You should contact Hazel - she's put more thought into this than anyone else I know, plus she has a philosophy degree. Not sure if she has published anything yet.

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#33 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 10:41:00 am
Generally it's pretty good if the "why" corresponds to genuine personal desire for the actual experience (and less for the result / peripherals).

andy popp

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#34 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 01:17:58 pm
had a major chuckle about the sandbag solo!

Were you there Dave? I have a feeling you might have been.

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#35 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 05:04:50 pm
Was thinking about this thread when I saw this. “That was terrifying. I don’t know why”. Wasn’t sure whether it was sarcasm but I know why! This isn’t the same Dan is it?



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#36 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 06:27:12 pm
Unfortunately that was me puntering. Pretty sure Jonny Brown onsighted  this back in the day?

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#37 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 06:29:03 pm
Thanks for mentioning about Hazel JB I did have an email chat a couple of years ago so may do that again. On a different note when you say avant guard video, about what?

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#38 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 06:44:20 pm
Unfortunately that was me puntering. Pretty sure Jonny Brown onsighted  this back in the day?

Sort of. It was all chalked up which makes a big difference. I do remember really enjoying it.

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#39 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 07:25:30 pm
Nice one great effort, yeah the higher holds are quite invisible without chalk. Amazingly conditions dependent and fickle I thought. Fair play for Pete Bridgewoods solo.

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#40 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 07:55:07 pm
JB’s post captures it quite well. I think it is about knowing your own abilities, being in the groove of climbing regularly on rock and moving well - presumably what people mean by “flow”.

For me the phrase “turning your brain off” does also capture something as well. It doesn’t mean not thinking about the risk of the situation, being reckless or not being scared.  Instead it means that I will very carefully weigh up the risks of a climb or section of a climb, look at the moves and whether I think I can do them, assess the gear and likely outcome if I fall etc.  However, having done that, if I decide to go for it I try to turn my brain off in the sense of trying to focus solely on the climbing, thinking about what I am doing very intensely in one way, but in another trying not to over-think it and instead flow through the moves.

Perhaps some people have a better innnate capacity to do this, but for me it definitely improves with practice and time on rock.  Equally it goes again if I haven’t been climbing much, or feel like I’m not moving over the rock well.

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#41 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 08:17:28 pm
... one more thought - one of the main things I love about climbing is that it forces you to be 100% in the moment and focused on what you are doing, forgetting everything else. Personally I find that bold climbs are often the ones which most induce this state of mind.

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#42 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 11:51:27 pm
When I was doing some bold routes, I found it more of an internal exploration, in some ways the route felt almost incidental to observing what happened to my brain when I placed it in certain situations.

I apologize if that sounds pretty pretentious obviously I set out simply wanting to climb whatever route it was but what sticks with me is the memory of an internal monologue where I'd often feel quite divorced from the route in question and just think about random things.

DAVETHOMAS90

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#43 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 05, 2019, 11:57:42 pm
had a major chuckle about the sandbag solo!

Were you there Dave? I have a feeling you might have been.

Hi Andy.

It was more a general reference to  escapades at the time, getting oneself into a spot of bother - often in ways which seem utterly ridiculous now.

I think we were just climbing in a different way, and it was the norm. I fondly remember sharing "True Moments" with you of course. Definitely a rewarding experience, feeling comfortable enough soloing in such a splendid position. Fabulous.

Avon climbing was indeed typically bold. I remember one occasion, cutting my teeth on low end Extremes, I'd partnered up with a local who thought it would be fun to point me at Last Slip. Teetered my way up it, but bold slab climbing was what I grew up with in Devon. Being scared was totally the norm.

Something that comes to mind, is that I think the perception of risk drops with familiarity - rather like the fear of flying. There are far more situations in life than we care to recognise, where one faulty piece of equipment may spell disaster. That's not the risk, it's the liklihood of it happening.

There were as many people killed post 9/11 due to a rise in road traffic accidents - because many Americans thought driving was safer than flying - as we're killed in the towers.

Familiarity very much affects how the risks are assessed. I remember Crispin Waddy always seeming to have a sound rational perspective on soloing.

Surprisingly difficult - and scary - situations, I find, can lead to a sense of life as an emergent phenomena. When you're feeling rusty, climbing seems to be about getting it right, choosing the right holds etc. When you're climbing well, it's about being with what evolves in between.

As for Hazel, I can imagine her saying something like “I enjoy climbing because it's one arena where I get to stand or fall on the basis of my own experiences, and not what others tell me"  ;) Or perhaps she might give some pointers on how to critique her work. All highly presumptuous of me I know.

Edit. In reply to TobyD that doesn't sound in the least pretentious - and perhaps one of the rewards!

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#44 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 06, 2019, 02:10:31 pm
I think more people should read The Alchemy of Action by Doug Robinson. It details how a lot of these factors... flow ... reward ... contentment may follow from brain chemistry, especially that aroumd noradrenaline and dopamine. It also helps explains why risk is much lower than expected in such seemingly high risk situations and why climbers engaged in high risk games are more likley than expected to have accidents on easier ground, when they stop focussing. It would also applies to any climber whatever their ability engaged in dealing with risk in such controlled ways, such that they feel 'flow'.

http://movingoverstone.com/books/

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#45 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 06, 2019, 02:45:16 pm
I'd partnered up with a local who thought it would be fun to point me at Last Slip.

I thought getting into the groove and up to the pegs was sketchy as fuck. When my partner fell off seconding below that bit, her swing pulled the RPs out. I've done easier E4s on grit.

I've also developed quite a thing for Avon....

andy popp

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#46 Re: Developing a climbing ‘head’
January 06, 2019, 04:18:13 pm
I fondly remember sharing "True Moments" with you of course. Definitely a rewarding experience, feeling comfortable enough soloing in such a splendid position. Fabulous.

Yes, that was a lovely. We shared a similarly enjoyable solo of Bishop's Rib.

 

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