[user deactivated]

So I’ve been thinking about this more recently. What are the things that allow some people to complete bold climbs or climb above bolts where others may back off, become quivering wrecks or never set off at all. Putting Alex Honnold like anomaly’s and the concept of ‘flow’ to side for one moment I thought it might boil down to a relatively straight forward equation.

The motivation to [succeed] is greater than a desire for personal [safety]

Where ‘success’ and ‘safety’ can be considered complex human experiences ranging from getting to the top of a route or boulder problem or gaining waddage from peers to staying physically unharmed and psychologically un dented.

This could be expanded on greatly to help think about the mental side of climbing. I wondered what you guys thought?

[spidermonkey09]

I think that equation is a good start. To go off on a slight, yet hopefully relevant tangent, when I started climbing when I went to uni I was pitifully unfit but learned good technique quite quickly. I vividly remember my first leads, where I knew the gear I was placing was shite (it had absolutely no reason to be) but essentially backed myself not to fall off so carried on. I just wan't scared climbing above it because I had internal confidence in my own (average) ability.

More than once the internal dialogue went to the tune of 'if I stop and place gear here I will get pumped and fall off, but if I carry on I'm pretty sure I can do it.' This led to some pretty hairy experiences early in my climbing on (among others) Shell Shock at St Govans and Conclusion at Shepherds in particular, where in hindsight I can say with confidence that had I fallen I would almost certainly have maimed myself or worse. Its not a period of my climbing I'm proud of and I don't really know why it happened; can only presume the new found confidence of being half decent at something combined with going to uni and climbing in a competitive group. I also identified with the ballsy, run out ethics of UK climbing history and perhaps subconsciously wanted to experience that a little.

As I got better at placing gear(!) I realised how lucky I'd been and started climbing with much more care and control, but I still found myself doing best on long run out pitches such as Pull My Daisy or Silly Arete. I don't know why this is, but in conversations with friends about this very topic I've used the phrase 'switch off the brain', as this is what it always felt like to me. As to why I was, and occasionally still am able to flick this switch quite effectively at will where others find it much harder, I don't know. Good thread though, interested in what others think.

[andy_e]

Definitely a very interesting topic, one I found myself thinking about whilst trying a highball with a crux top move recently. Why on earth did I want to climb it so much that I'd go to great heights and commit, when all around me lay hundreds of lowballs, a lot of which I haven't done. I've always been a lowballer, so perhaps I was just looking for a new experience with a relatively new group of friends? I'm not an adrenaline junky looking for a fix, so it wasn't that either. I suppose I just wanted to know how it felt to hit the top and feel some satisfaction of being slightly outside my comfort zone? I like being in control of situations (hence why I don't like being a passenger in a car, or am not particularly keen on flying) so was this a new situation to try and be in control of, expanding that comfort zone? I don't really know, I'm still yet to conclude and my limited experience of highballing means I may well be internally philosophising in moments of meditation for years to come.

[user deactivated]

Nice one spider monkey, yeah the desire to succeed is strong at that time (perceived rewards from peer group etc, no guts no glory) and I’d think the ability to override by ‘switching your head off’ is a function of that desire. A display of mental prowess maybe?

[T_B]

A lack of emotional intelligence. That's my theory anyway.

[spidermonkey09]

the desire to succeed is strong at that time (perceived rewards from peer group etc, no guts no glory) and I’d think the ability to override by ‘switching your head off’ is a function of that desire. A display of mental prowess maybe?

Yeah thats it in a nutshell. Climbing was responsible for me finding a huge amount of self confidence that wasn't there when I left school; so much so people commented on it in the pub back home over the Christmas break. My uni group was actually fairly incompetent with the benefit of hindsight, which I suppose if anything made the 'glory' achieved by leading an HVS or whatever more significant, relatively speaking of course...!

Trying to get into the mind of young blokes is so tricky, even at the time. I was definitely proud of the mental control I had on the sharp end and actually still am to a certain extent; probably because I don't fully understand it. All the routes I was psyched for then were bold or dangerous ones, probably because subconsciously I knew I was too weak to do any others! Some of them have stayed with me for years; doing California Arete in 2017 is one of the highlights of my climbing still, despite being fundamentally a giants staircase. Go figure!

[spidermonkey09]

Definitely a very interesting topic, one I found myself thinking about whilst trying a highball with a crux top move recently. Why on earth did I want to climb it so much that I'd go to great heights and commit, when all around me lay hundreds of lowballs, a lot of which I haven't done. I've always been a lowballer, so perhaps I was just looking for a new experience with a relatively new group of friends? .

I fucking love highball bouldering in a group. Definitely a part of that is ego I think (male ego?). The feeling of everyone getting a move higher and jumping off until its time to commit fully is great.

[user deactivated]

A lack of emotional intelligence. That's my theory anyway.

Not quite sure I understand that Tom. I’m not necessarily talking about boldness. We all know super capable people that constantly climb under their limit for fear of perceived failure.

[user deactivated]

I’d include myself in that too

[Fiend]

Not sure what to make of it all but I find there is a pretty clear difference between "bold / dealing with phantom fear"  and "serious / dealing with real fear of actual injury or death".

[user deactivated]

I’d argue that there was no difference apart from that ‘in the mind of the beholder’. It still boils down to the same risk vs reward

[DAVETHOMAS90]

The reward isn't getting to the top of the climb.

There are a lot of myths about "overriding fear".

I really enjoyed Graham Hoey's article, "A Gritstone Retrospective" on UKC for his thoughts about use of pads etc.

I find it very hard to convey the feeling of reaching that point where you can observe - and be completely mindful of - the experience of fear, while being able to remain fully aware of - and immersed in, and enjoy - the climbing.

Accepting the fear - and the commitment required - puts you in a different place in the "climbing space", and that is the reward.

Making the outcome the reward is what prevents us from developing the "climbing head".


Dan, I need to drop you a line about the Declaration video BTW. Loved the Cheedale one too.

[petejh]

I’d argue that there was no difference apart from that ‘in the mind of the beholder’. It still boils down to the same risk vs reward

Hmm.. I think there is a real difference.

Plenty of folk out there get spooked just being above a bolt on the indoor lead wall, despite the rational brain recognising that they can't come to any real harm. That's a different type of fear to the sort experienced when you get into a position where you rationally acknowledge the high probability that you're going to spanner yourself badly should you fall.

Maybe 'head switched off' is a pragmatic response to the second type of fear so you don't lose your shit. The opposite - head switched on so as to rationalise - works best for irrational fear.
 

[user deactivated]

Totally agree Pete, I’d say the coping strategies will vary given the specifics of the situation but I’d maintain that the original response is still the same regardless of it being real or ‘percieved’ danger.

And in that way the desire for reward must still outway the risk whether real or perceived

[petejh]

Thinking about it some more maybe the difference I think exists is that 'reward outweighs risk' is one way to win through in situations of genuine risk that could produce justified fear..
..but in situations of irrational fear about a a perceived (but not real) risk it isn't so much a 'reward outweighs risk' mindset that wins the day, it's having the mind management skills to rationalise that 'there is no risk (or it can be managed to a safe enough  level)'.
I guess yeah some might not rationalise away the irrational fear from a perceived risk and instead just still fight on through (the thing that isn't a risk).. and have to use the 'reward outweighs risk' approach. Even though on reflection they might realise the risk wasn't actually genuine. 

[Steve R]

I agree it's simply a risk vs reward thing but what constitutes an acceptable ratio between the two and how the risk part is perceived/quantified for a particular individual will be largely determined by his/her personality traits.  Neuroticism and openness being particularly pertinent I'd have thought.  eg. someone high in neuroticism and low in openness is always going to have a relatively hard time to commit to a run-out or gun it above a bolt even when they really want to.  Read these traits are decided by ~50% genetics, ~50% childhood environment so probably not much scope for 'developing' a climbing head for genuinely bold or high stakes climbing once you're an adult!?  Might be possible to cultivate the desire/reward side though I guess.

[andy popp]

An interesting topic that I've pondered on a little but never given any real structured thought to, though I used to be pretty good at tolerating fairly high levels of risk in climbing, even while being quite risk averse in most areas of life.

I'm not convinced by the equation Dan, at least for myself, not least because it begs the question of what 'motivation' is, how it can be explained, and why it might be strong enough to override fear. In other words, it leaves a lot of questions unanswered, possibly unasked. I think Dave T is getting at something similar when he talks about the need to be clear what we mean when we talk about "rewards."

Second, I'm not sure "motivation" played much of a part in a lot of my bolder/riskier climbings, which were often spontaneous and were done without much plan etc., possibly not even much reflection sometimes. Enjoyment was more powerful than "motivation." Dave T's line about "that point where you can observe - and be completely mindful of - the experience of fear, while being able to remain fully aware of - and immersed in, and enjoy - the climbing" encapsulates a lot of my experiences. I never just switched my head off.

In terms of explanation, I started climbing in the Avon Gorge and boldness was just part of climbing from the beginning. Thereafter I guess  continuing adaptation/practice helped.

The most interesting experiences were watching how I reacted on occasions when I suddenly found myself facing much more risk than I had anticipated; for example soloing something that proved to be a complete sandbag (apparently everyone but me knew this) or getting off route soloing. The ability to adjust quickly and constructively to changing circumstances is an important test of a climbing head I think.

[user deactivated]

Cheers for replying guys some really interesting points and definitely relatable to what Dave was saying in his podcasts. I know the equation seems overly basic and doesn’t really capture the apparent complexity of the human experience. Motivation is a strange word as it suggests drive towards some sort of conscious goal. I think the way I meant it was to try and cover both the conscious and unconscious drives. Dave’s example when talking about soloing (if I’ve got this right, sorry if not Dave) was driven by both a need for a feeling of self worth but also motivated by managing a traumatic past and current intense emotions that go with that. Therefore the risky act becomes one of validation and control as a human being. Like Steve said nature and childhood experiences are both involved and as you say Andy the picture is different for every personality. My point begins and ends at the moment we decide to commit, whether this be leaving the ground or going above a bolt or just trying a hard boulder problem you’re ‘scared’ of failing in front of your mates. After this it becomes what works for the individual to manage the challenging situation, deep breathing, climbing slowly, mindful attention or just gunning it. I think you’re totally right about switching your head off, it’s more about embracing the fear and using it to your advantage to use a cliche or just noticing it and distancing or detaching from it or just being totally adrenalinised of course! The point of asking the question is I think this topic isn’t particularly well explored in the current books. I’ve read a bit of mastermind (positive thinking) and the rock warriors way (mindfulness) and 9 out of 10 climbers (exposure to falling) - sorry to over simplify. Which all provide coping strategies but I think something is missing?

[lagerstarfish]

enjoying the movement has always been big for me - that includes challenge

the feeling of "success" counts a lot too

I did lots of easy mileage day after day (including poor conditions) which developed naturally into less easy mileage

then, when a nice looking bit of rock came up, or an interesting route description/history, I found the motivation increased a bit

I did use movement on rock high off the ground as a way of keeping my mind off stuff that I didn't want to think about, but not to the extent that I was taking big risks

anyway -  the answer from me is is volume (including variety); which leads to an understanding of what you like/want

edit - mileage may be a misleading term - it's not necessarily the amount of vertical gain that makes the motivation, but rather the amount of quality time on rock or the number of times you feel that "I did it" thing

[andy popp]

One further point I wanted to make is that I always viewed risk as a by-product of the climbing that I wanted to do, not the point of it. So, if I wanted to do a particular route in a particular style I had to accept the risk that involved.

[Johnny Brown]

The motivation to [succeed] is greater than a desire for personal [safety]

I think is basically totally wrong. It's this approach that leads to the terrifying spectacle that we've all witnessed of the sketching punter dicing with death because he's decided to stop being a pussy and JUST GO FOR IT.

Having a good head is about competence. It's about having a solid understanding of your ability and form, the rock, and the conditions so that you can extend your comfort zone. It's the opposite of switching your brain off.

The problem with climbing in recent years is that has become all about performance and improvement. You train, then you go out to try something hard and either fail or just succeed. For your head, for your technique and competence this unfortunately means you've succumbed to the Peter Principle: operating at your level of incompetence.

The solution is pretty easy; drop your grade and spend the majority of your time operating well within your limits. By which I mean you aren't worried about not doing the moves and are freed up to place your attention into climbing well. Only climb harder if you can maintain the quality of movement. Keep your concentration centred but not too intense, try to match your breathing to your movement. Do enough of this and you'll have a great head. You may care less about the project that sparked the post.

Summary: the key line in Fawcett on Rock was always this: 'nothing gives you confidence like technique'.

Not sure why you wouldn't want to talk about flow? Is it not something you've experienced? I find that memorable flow states are far more likely to be triggered by bold climbs. As Honnold and Croft discuss in Free Solo - 'I love it when your footwork gets super-precise'.

Agree with Andy and DT. The risk and the reward are not easily separated.

edit: lagers beat me to it. I did think of his videos!

[lagerstarfish]

What are the things that allow some people to complete bold climbs or climb above bolts where others may back off, become quivering wrecks or never set off at all.

know what you want

not as simple as some people make out

[andy popp]

Having a good head is about competence. It's about having a solid understanding of your ability and form, the rock, and the conditions so that you can extend your comfort zone. It's the opposite of switching your brain off.

This, 100%. True, it mainly deals with the "how" question, not the "why" question - but if you've dealt with "how" then "why" becomes less important.

[user deactivated]

That’s a great point Andy, I was at a lecture entitled ‘how to do psychotherapy without getting in the way’ a few years ago. And the guy giving the lecture was talking about questioning. Specifically how and why. He used the example ‘how did I come to sit in this chair’ or Why did I come to sit in this chair’ as examples. One question offering an opening while the other closing down.

[user deactivated]

That’s a great post Adam and I 100% agree with everything you said. Having great technique, rope work and competence and climbing within your grade of course leads to increased confidence and a very satisfying and fulfilling climbing experience.

I’m definitely not talking about bold and reckless here. Although that’s the side of things people are focussing on. What I said could equally equate to the lowest of low ball boulder problems. 

[andy popp]

I’m definitely not talking about bold and reckless here. Although that’s the side of things people are focussing on. What I said could equally equate to the lowest of low ball boulder problems.

I've largely been talking about situations in which there is genuine risk, epitomised by soloing onsight.

[user deactivated]

I’ve just read Dave’s post about awareness and fear (sorry Dave missed it earlier). I guess in response to that and Adam’s point about not mentioning ‘flow’ is that it’s not that I don’t think transcendent states of consciousness aren’t important or valuable. But that basic questions surrounding conscious and unconscious motives (insight) may or may not lead to better decisions being made and avoid the exact situation of the gibbering go for it that Adam pointed out. 

[user deactivated]

Ps. I don’t have any bold projects or motives that ‘sparked’ the post. My motive was to get a bit of concensus about things that may help develop a sound climbing head and put them in an essay online here. So it was more of a survey of opinion I guess. Thanks for all the replies. I’m much less about ‘performance’ these days and as Adam pointed out often find this is to the detriment of overall climbing experience. Balance is important and to borrow the demi god ondra’s words the difference between conquering a climb and going rock climbing.

[Muenchener]

In terms of explanation, I started climbing in the Avon Gorge and boldness was just part of climbing from the beginning.

Depends on the individual's reaction to the situation as much as to the physical reality of it. I too did a lot on my early climbing at Avon, and in my case it left with far too much of a "leader must not fall" attitude that did me no good elsewhere on more normally protected crags.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Hi folks.

Totally relate to Andy P's posts - and had a major chuckle about the sandbag solo! Also cut my teeth climbing at places like Avon.

The "climbing space" was something that evolved and expanded with practice. Finding a "gap" between "feelings" and "action" on the rock face gave me something of an antidote to other difficult things. It gave me a place where I could enjoy being what I already was, instead of meeting external demands.

Switching the head off is a nonsense.

I had to cycle to the Foundry late tonight, and my legs got pumped. While I kept the hammer down, it became absurdly obvious that you develop a climbing head in the way that you develop a climbing body.

Being fit isn't necessarily about not getting pumped, it's about performing better when you do, or rather, you get fitter by getting pumped more regularly.

"A climbing head" is what we improve when we get scared more regularly, but the question often gets asked in a way which implies not getting scared.

When we're unpracticed we think being scared = something bad is about to happen. The gift of the sort of unplanned epic Andy alludes to, is that (hopefully!) we get to learn that this isn't the case, and we become less reactive to feeing scared.

I got to the top of the Wave at the Foundry, and realised I'm not very practiced at the moment!

I think it's easy to think that being scared is a barrier to the goals/routes you want to climb. I think that feeling scared was just a more frequent part of my climbing than it is now.

Put simply, it's not getting scared that's the barrier, it's not getting scared enough.

Better to solo Crescent Arete, Breadline, Archangel without pads, than topping Ulyses above a stack.

Other than that, I do agree with Pete's remarks about dealing with irrational fear, although even in that case it doesn't necessarily eradicate the fear, but gives us permission to "go for it" while feeling scared, and maybe lob off a few times.

Edit. Feeling scared while climbing, helped me understand what "negative thoughts" I could let go of, rather than block out. It helped me process some of the fear I'd felt elsewhere. Fear often causes us to create very powerful associations.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Good thread BTW Dan.

Apparently simple answers don't imply a simple topic.

[user deactivated]

Cheers Dave, really appreciate your openness and invaluable insight! Ok great so I’ve got a few vague subheadings now

Climbing and beliefs of self and others

Motivations and drives in climbing ‘the unconscious’

Altered states of consciousness (flow, the detached mind, feeling unreal etc)

Competence and technique

Rationalising the irrational

Personal insight and decision making ‘weighing up risk’

Strategies for managing anxiety and fear ‘how to best cope’

Practiced boldness is it an operant conditioning thing.


What do you guys think? I could research it more and write something?

[Johnny Brown]

I'd prefer a short film in an avant garde style.

You should contact Hazel - she's put more thought into this than anyone else I know, plus she has a philosophy degree. Not sure if she has published anything yet.

[Fiend]

Generally it's pretty good if the "why" corresponds to genuine personal desire for the actual experience (and less for the result / peripherals).

[andy popp]

had a major chuckle about the sandbag solo!

Were you there Dave? I have a feeling you might have been.

[Murph]

Was thinking about this thread when I saw this. “That was terrifying. I don’t know why”. Wasn’t sure whether it was sarcasm but I know why! This isn’t the same Dan is it?

[user deactivated]

Unfortunately that was me puntering. Pretty sure Jonny Brown onsighted  this back in the day?

[user deactivated]

Thanks for mentioning about Hazel JB I did have an email chat a couple of years ago so may do that again. On a different note when you say avant guard video, about what?

[Johnny Brown]

Unfortunately that was me puntering. Pretty sure Jonny Brown onsighted  this back in the day?

Sort of. It was all chalked up which makes a big difference. I do remember really enjoying it.

[user deactivated]

Nice one great effort, yeah the higher holds are quite invisible without chalk. Amazingly conditions dependent and fickle I thought. Fair play for Pete Bridgewoods solo.

[kingholmesy]

JB’s post captures it quite well. I think it is about knowing your own abilities, being in the groove of climbing regularly on rock and moving well - presumably what people mean by “flow”.

For me the phrase “turning your brain off” does also capture something as well. It doesn’t mean not thinking about the risk of the situation, being reckless or not being scared.  Instead it means that I will very carefully weigh up the risks of a climb or section of a climb, look at the moves and whether I think I can do them, assess the gear and likely outcome if I fall etc.  However, having done that, if I decide to go for it I try to turn my brain off in the sense of trying to focus solely on the climbing, thinking about what I am doing very intensely in one way, but in another trying not to over-think it and instead flow through the moves.

Perhaps some people have a better innnate capacity to do this, but for me it definitely improves with practice and time on rock.  Equally it goes again if I haven’t been climbing much, or feel like I’m not moving over the rock well.

[kingholmesy]

... one more thought - one of the main things I love about climbing is that it forces you to be 100% in the moment and focused on what you are doing, forgetting everything else. Personally I find that bold climbs are often the ones which most induce this state of mind.

[TobyD]

When I was doing some bold routes, I found it more of an internal exploration, in some ways the route felt almost incidental to observing what happened to my brain when I placed it in certain situations.

I apologize if that sounds pretty pretentious obviously I set out simply wanting to climb whatever route it was but what sticks with me is the memory of an internal monologue where I'd often feel quite divorced from the route in question and just think about random things.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

had a major chuckle about the sandbag solo!

Were you there Dave? I have a feeling you might have been.

Hi Andy.

It was more a general reference to  escapades at the time, getting oneself into a spot of bother - often in ways which seem utterly ridiculous now.

I think we were just climbing in a different way, and it was the norm. I fondly remember sharing "True Moments" with you of course. Definitely a rewarding experience, feeling comfortable enough soloing in such a splendid position. Fabulous.

Avon climbing was indeed typically bold. I remember one occasion, cutting my teeth on low end Extremes, I'd partnered up with a local who thought it would be fun to point me at Last Slip. Teetered my way up it, but bold slab climbing was what I grew up with in Devon. Being scared was totally the norm.

Something that comes to mind, is that I think the perception of risk drops with familiarity - rather like the fear of flying. There are far more situations in life than we care to recognise, where one faulty piece of equipment may spell disaster. That's not the risk, it's the liklihood of it happening.

There were as many people killed post 9/11 due to a rise in road traffic accidents - because many Americans thought driving was safer than flying - as we're killed in the towers.

Familiarity very much affects how the risks are assessed. I remember Crispin Waddy always seeming to have a sound rational perspective on soloing.

Surprisingly difficult - and scary - situations, I find, can lead to a sense of life as an emergent phenomena. When you're feeling rusty, climbing seems to be about getting it right, choosing the right holds etc. When you're climbing well, it's about being with what evolves in between.

As for Hazel, I can imagine her saying something like “I enjoy climbing because it's one arena where I get to stand or fall on the basis of my own experiences, and not what others tell me"  Or perhaps she might give some pointers on how to critique her work. All highly presumptuous of me I know.

Edit. In reply to TobyD that doesn't sound in the least pretentious - and perhaps one of the rewards!

[Offwidth]

I think more people should read The Alchemy of Action by Doug Robinson. It details how a lot of these factors... flow ... reward ... contentment may follow from brain chemistry, especially that aroumd noradrenaline and dopamine. It also helps explains why risk is much lower than expected in such seemingly high risk situations and why climbers engaged in high risk games are more likley than expected to have accidents on easier ground, when they stop focussing. It would also applies to any climber whatever their ability engaged in dealing with risk in such controlled ways, such that they feel 'flow'.

http://movingoverstone.com/books/

[Fiend]

I'd partnered up with a local who thought it would be fun to point me at Last Slip.

I thought getting into the groove and up to the pegs was sketchy as fuck. When my partner fell off seconding below that bit, her swing pulled the RPs out. I've done easier E4s on grit.

I've also developed quite a thing for Avon....

[andy popp]

I fondly remember sharing "True Moments" with you of course. Definitely a rewarding experience, feeling comfortable enough soloing in such a splendid position. Fabulous.

Yes, that was a lovely. We shared a similarly enjoyable solo of Bishop's Rib.