[Fiend]

I'm trying!!!

It's a bit frustrating having had digestive / depressive issues last year (during which I could at least keep vaguely strong/fit), then 3 months grace where I felt myself again (Sept - Nov), then once I try to progress physically, this bullshit. More  I know I know....

On the plus side I do actually like slabs 

[sheavi]

General aerobic exercise and yoga (ashtanga sounds good for you) should really help with the mood side. There must be loads of strengthening exercises you can do to stay relatively strong for climbing that don't aggravate your elbow?  Just experiment a bit over a week and assess how your elbow responds.  Best wishes

[mrjonathanr]

Physio told me last night that it wasn't surprising my shoulder was still weak/painful after 3 months as their rule of thumb is 6-12 months for a shoulder injury to heal fully (if ever  ).

So be grateful for the opportunity to develop the virtue of patience Fiend. Or just find some displacement activity to keep sane while you go through rehab. Ashtanga is great but I'd be cautious with your elbows, it may not be as gentle as you think.

[webbo]

I would think that any slab that requires anything other than pure padding will put strain on your elbows. I find that you often end up very strange strenuous positions on slabs.
I would have thought vertical stuff would be better.

[tomtom]

I would think that any slab that requires anything other than pure padding will put strain on your elbows. I find that you often end up very strange strenuous positions on slabs.
I would have thought vertical stuff would be better.

Yup. Most slabs I seem to do end up with you pushing down on your tips from above - aggravating those muscles on back of hand.

Go road bike shopping with Shark?

[SA Chris]

Or just find some displacement activity to keep sane while you go through rehab.

Don't hold your paintbrush too hard!

[Fiend]

Thanks for the replies guys:

General aerobic - big problem for me due to DVTs. I am keeping up with the running (20 mins max). I'm considering swimming again which I despise.

Strengthening exercises - based on my experience with weights etc, I think my overall body strength is okay. It's my climbing-specific power-to-weight ratio that is the main area to improve, which is exactly what I was trying when I fucked elbows. Core/flexibility is the other one. I'm on the verge of booking a yoga class.

Virtue of patience - you must be fucking joking 

Yoga - on the verge of booking a beginner's class.

Slabs - in my recent experience / experiments they've been absolutely fine. After a day out doing slabs at Garheugh my elbows felt the best they had for weeks, probably a combination of usage and constant overall activity without any stress. The pushing down thing seems okay, it's more dynamic movement, unloading and catching things, rotating too, that feels bad.

Road biking - not being able to do that is one saving grace of leg issues.

Paintbrush - hah yes, unfortunately there is a direct correlation between getting sucked into painting toy soldiers again and rapidly loosing all climbing fitness.

[sheavi]

Do more slabs then.  Pressing exercises were fine when I had my elbow problem. Press-ups, shoulder press etc.  Everyone is different. I could do pull-ups, within reason, if I didn't engage my thumb too.

[duncan]

Slabs - in my recent experience / experiments they've been absolutely fine. After a day out doing slabs at Garheugh my elbows felt the best they had for weeks, probably a combination of usage and constant overall activity without any stress.

And because you were enjoying yourself, doing something important for you, in a lovely place. Not a trivial consideration, especially if you've been at a low ebb.

[shark]

Slabs - in my recent experience / experiments they've been absolutely fine. After a day out doing slabs at Garheugh my elbows felt the best they had for weeks, probably a combination of usage and constant overall activity without any stress.

And because you were enjoying yourself, doing something important for you, in a lovely place. Not a trivial consideration, especially if you've been at a low ebb.

I don't think Gresh enjoyed Indian Face but reported that his elbow problems disappeared after doing it.

My preventative is cranking out 30+ dwarf press ups when elbows start playing up which I see Ive mentioned to you before   

[Fiend]

Cloggy's not in nick tho FFS. Neither is Dyer's Lookout (Dave_Mac elbow recovery plan).

Duncan, gorgeous weather and setting and good company etc might have helped matters yes. Even so I was heeding the physical symptoms quite a lot. In a more controlled environment i.e. indoors, I can feel what feels tweaky and what doesn't - most slabbier stuff definitely doesn't.

Physio advised against doing press-ups. I told him that bench had been absolutely fine (omitting that I cracked out the usual 80kg 1RM, also did a 50kg overheard press 1RM PB). He still thought it might aggravate the area.....I am still not sure. Tossing a wok pan around produces some discomfort, bench doesn't. I think more antagonists might help (not that I'm usually slack on them). Duncan Disorderly is too tall, too fucking skinny, and injures himself just looking at boulders, but also seems to recover miraculously quickly for such a punter, so I will have a look at the Dwarfs.

[sheavi]

Get another physio I'd say or simply exercise within relative comfort.  No reason particularly why press-ups or bench press will necessarily aggravate the condition - especially if you've tried them without issue.  Disclaimer I'm a physio btw.

[tomtom]

I’ve given up on my twisty bar (toddler has hidden it somewhere) but find the reverse wrist curls (palm down) work well. I use c.4kg. And can do about 20 reps before I’m pumped. Yes - pumped.

[tomtom]

So - Hope your elbows are getting a bit better Fiend - mine are maybe on the mend - though it feels more like just reasonably manageable at the moment.

General ramble/update/thoughts below.

Anyway - I've been thinking over the last few months about what actually hurts or causes my tennis elbow. Rather than try and hurt it (the stick your finger in the bullet wound and wiggle it about until you scream the loudest method) I've tried to cause and effect it during every day climbing. And to be honest its hard to pin down. Maybe lock offs, maybe big pinches.

I've been doing reverse wrist curls (palms down) with c.5kg for the last few weeks every other day or sometimes more often.

However - yesterday I did some fingerboarding for the first time in ages (due to wonky back..) and two things made it twinge straight away (as opposed to ache or feel ummm which other exercises had).

1. Half crimping instead of open handing. Straight away felt like I shouldnt be doing this (even on larger holds)
2. Pulling up past (less than) 90 degrees. Even on big holds - once I got to start lifting my shoulders above my elbows the outside of my left arm started to scream,

So no campusing for me (no big loss!) and I suspect I often knack my way around #2 or just avoid problems that have such moves... Not sure if its ever going to be completely fixed. Doesnt really feel like it at the moment...

[Fiend]

3 years later, (un)welcome back tennis elbows. Christ I was blissfully naive back then. The idea of these aches and pains just being aches and pains rather than acute injuries rapidly evolving into chronic injuries. And probably the equally ridiculous idea that they might heal up reasonably quickly (I seem to recall I didn't regain anything near full strength until mid-summer).

Anyway. Was doing decent stuff that was okay for golfers / LCL on the Depot 30 board, and feeling a bit better. Last week (after steadily increasing the effort over the previous 10 days) I did 2 board sessions and 2 gym sessions in 3 days, and made two clear mistakes of firstly doing some arm stuff at the gym rather than using it as arms rest in-between the board days, and secondly not stopping the second board session when I realised the fatigue wasn't going and I was getting a bit of discomfort in my elbows.

So now I've got a persistent niggle, mostly in the right elbow (and a bit in the left), right in the joint where the tendon joins the bone. It's not as bad as it was previously* and this time I've actually taken things gently since the aggravation rather than campussing and bouldering in an arctic gale. Instead I've rested a day, then 2 days of mostly rest but some dumbbell rehab, then a rest day, then easy non-aggravational mileage, then a rest day, the more EN-AM. I've also booked Process, and re-read this thread (useful stuff!) and dropped the dumbbell weights so low the things are almost bloody floating in the air they're so light. Will also get a proper massage to try to loosen shoulders. In the mean time I'm trying not to panic too much...

(* - Conversely, this time I'm coming from a position of already exceptional lack of form (last time I was at a relative peak). And I'm 3 months behind in terms of time of year / seasons. And 3 years older....)

So be grateful for the opportunity to develop the virtue of patience Fiend.

I think my overall body strength is okay. It's my climbing-specific power-to-weight ratio that is the main area to improve, which is exactly what I was trying when I fucked elbows.
...
that's partly what got me into this mess in the first place, actually trying to train hard and get stronger instead of being fat and weak and coasting along on my ability to place RPs and pretend choss isn't going to fall down all around me.

Nothing's changed huh. Realise how disproportionately weak I am. Try to get strong. Get injured, get weaker, and lose more time that I could have been maintaining / potentially getting stronger.

Thinking of joining a yoga class. It's that desperate.

This hasn't changed either. Incidentally I did join a yoga class back in 2019, it wasn't too horrible and a I learnt a nice glute stretch (that I haven't be able to do for the last 3 months due to LCL of course).


Edit: Could a mod / cartilage-based underwater predator please change the thread title to "Acute / chronic tennis elbow" or something similarly informative and easy to search for, ta x

[Fultonius]

I've been meaning to put this video up for a while. When my tennis elbow was bad, this "stretch/massage" was really beneficial:



I think it was more beneficial when I had full blown tendinosis but I'm pretty sure it helped the second time with more acute tendonitis.

The main difference for me was that the second time (tendinitis) I need to do more gentle wrist curls and more reps.

[Fiend]

Cheers. The forearm muscles are feeling really....achey to massage, although the real pain is in the joint area. I will try that technique too.

[moose]

I've been meaning to put this video up for a while. When my tennis elbow was bad, this "stretch/massage" was really beneficial:



I think it was more beneficial when I had full blown tendinosis but I'm pretty sure it helped the second time with more acute tendonitis.

The main difference for me was that the second time (tendinitis) I need to do more gentle wrist curls and more reps.

Makes sense - that looks analogous to one of the exercises that are recommended with Armaids. And for all they resemble something sold on QVC, occasional sessions of those exercises, whenever I've felt niggly, have kept my elbow tendonitis/ tendonosis under control for years.

This also seems to help ease the bouts of elbow tenderness.

https://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/golfers-elbow-a-possible-solution/

[Fultonius]

Cheers. The forearm muscles are feeling really....achey to massage, although the real pain is in the joint area. I will try that technique too.

Mine used to be really sore to massage, the whole muscle body, when my elbows were bad.

[SA Chris]

Same here. Anything to loosen off that muscle, massage like in the vid, or pinching anywhere across all parts of the forearm. If mine gets niggly I go full force with a roller (foam or a rolling pin) on that whole muscle pushing with whole body weight against a wall.

[Hoseyb]

I've been meaning to put this video up for a while. When my tennis elbow was bad, this "stretch/massage" was really beneficial:



I think it was more beneficial when I had full blown tendinosis but I'm pretty sure it helped the second time with more acute tendonitis.

The main difference for me was that the second time (tendinitis) I need to do more gentle wrist curls and more reps.

Yep muscle blocking to protect/take the strain off, the owie tendon when teaching the muscle whose boss.

It seems a lot of body maintenance is basically couples therapy between a meathead jock (the muscle) and a spirited but frail pensioner (the tendon)

[spidermonkey09]

I've been meaning to put this video up for a while. When my tennis elbow was bad, this "stretch/massage" was really beneficial:



I think it was more beneficial when I had full blown tendinosis but I'm pretty sure it helped the second time with more acute tendonitis.

The main difference for me was that the second time (tendinitis) I need to do more gentle wrist curls and more reps.

Makes sense - that looks analogous to one of the exercises that are recommended with Armaids. And for all they resemble something sold on QVC, occasional sessions of those exercises, whenever I've felt niggly, have kept my elbow tendonitis/ tendonosis under control for years.

This also seems to help ease the bouts of elbow tenderness.

https://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/golfers-elbow-a-possible-solution/

Buying an Armaid for 40 quid was the best purchase I made during lockdown. Brilliant. Highly recommended if you struggle with anything between elbow and fingers.

[Drewski Rootbitch]

This has always worked well for me, both for maintenance and fixing. It's all about the positioning of the hipbones onto the back of the forearms.

[Fiend]

Cheers guys. I've just tried the stretch / massage thingy. I'm quite happy to dig deep into aching / stiff muscles as they're a lot less worrying than tendons and ligaments. Anyway. I carefully found the muscles that connected the most prominently to the sorest bit of the tendon injury at the joint, then I found the bulkiest bit of that muscle, dug deep into there and wriggled my fingers and wrist a bit - definitely a sore or tight spot. More so on the more injured arm and more so than any of the surrounding muscle areas. Seems like it's a useful thing to do. Spidermonkey90 do you have a well-used Armaid for sale for, say £35??

P.S. The Randall golfer's elbow stretch, tried that decades ago when he just discovered it and before he was the coolest coach on the planet. It's for golfer's not tennis and TBH it never worked for me. Apparently reflexology did for chronic golfer's, YMMValot

[Fultonius]

P.S. The Randall golfer's elbow stretch, tried that decades ago when he just discovered it and before he was the coolest coach on the planet. It's for golfer's not tennis and TBH it never worked for me. Apparently reflexology did for chronic golfer's, YMMValot

Same here. Recently had a bit of grumbly brachialis (font elbow?) and it got recommended. No matter what position I got into it just felt like it wasn't doing any useful stretching, but did feel like it was hyperextending my elbows in a unsafe feeling way so I binned it. I've got mates that had other bicep/elbow issues and swear by it, so it's clearly good in some cases.