[SA Chris]

Never worked for my golfer's either, and also felt like it was hyperextending my wonky right arm to a point where it was unsafe.

[Fiend]

Really severe at the moment, after too much bouldering volume and overhanging fingery cranking in Wales a couple of weeks ago. Heavy cleaning of Egerton route top-outs hasn't helped.

Any more pro-tips would be welcome (apart from see a physio which I am soon, really ease off on things which I have been, and don't clean Egerton route top-outs which I'm not doing any more).

[arast]

https://thepowerfingers.com/

I reluctantly bought some of these 5/6 years ago after not having any luck with other exercises to get rid of tennis elbow.

I guess the same thing can be achieved with elastic bands or something cheaper but they’re quite convenient

[Fiend]

I bought one of those too, but it was weirdly tight, I didn't know what to do with the other holes, and the lube started to corrode it.

Good plan. I suspect these are more in the prehab / warming up once mostly recovered area though.

[Wellsy]

No tips but I'm sorry to hear your elbow is in a sad state Fiend, that's bloody rubbish

[T_B]

Mine have got steadily worse since February (tennis elbow).

A few friends are suffering and it seems that physios are prescribing lock offs to force the tendon to strengthen. 6 x 30 secs on a bar or rings. I’ve been doing that on and off and it seems to help a bit, but top roping Scarab in the rain the other evening self-belaying with a grigri was probably not a great idea.

Grit trad is fine and even short boulder problems and deadhangs, but circuits and getting pumped makes them worse.

Weirdly they can be agony one day and ok the next for no apparent reason.

[arast]

Good plan. I suspect these are more in the prehab / warming up once mostly recovered area though.

Maybe, but it totally fixed mine.

Went from being so bad it was impacting non-climbing related things - picking up cups of coffee etc to being able to climb with no pain during or after

I don’t find them useful at all for warming up, just use them after climbing.


n=1 etc etc

[Fiend]

Thanks T_B

I can imagine that shunting harder routes at Stoney in bad conditions would rank quite highly as one of the worse things for it!! It wasn't something I was planning. I found steep, thuggy, but easy-ish gritstone bouldering at some god-awful moorland scrittle-fest that Fatneck dragged me to the previous weekend was quite good for it - all open handed or jugs, no ratty crimps or tight locks.

Process Physio has prescribed me a "pipe of power", a sort of wrist curling thing that I'm doing 3 x 30 second holds on it, 3 times daily. I suspect he'd probably approve of lock-offs on a similar protocol. I might give them a tentative try. The pipe of power does target my particularly injury area alarmingly well, and it's really tender even pulling gently on it (more so that during most climbing).


Thanks arast.

That does sound promising, especially since yours obviously got bad too. I can pick up coffee cups fine, although squeezing toothpaste is a bit tender, as is swinging a mattock around and hoiking out gorse routes for 2 hours.... I think maybe those power finger thingers could be worth a shot then. Hmmm actually I just tried opening my hand out against resistance from the other hand and it didn't hurt....

[mrjonathanr]

Process Physio has prescribed me a "pipe of power",

Sounds like a book by Carlos Castaneda tbh, I’d go easy on that stuff Fiend. Hope your elbow relents soon!

[Duma]

Ain't no room for Castaneda,
in Fiend's Frontline library.

[Hoseyb]

https://www.physioroom.com/product/PhysioRoom_Resistance_Twist_Bar/2334/42589.html

Been using the resistance bars for years. Definitely helped, and much cheaper here than the thera-brand

[teestub]

https://www.physioroom.com/product/PhysioRoom_Resistance_Twist_Bar/2334/42589.html

Been using the resistance bars for years. Definitely helped, and much cheaper here than the thera-brand

Yeah assuming this is what Fiend is talking about, has definitely helped out my elbows in the past.

Mine have got steadily worse since February (tennis elbow).

Weirdly they can be agony one day and ok the next for no apparent reason.

This potentially sounds like more of a nerve impingement thing rather than tendon damage? I had similar before and found that stretching and massaging around the shoulder, in particular tight traps and chest helped no end.

[Carliios]

I’ve just finished up clearing my golfers elbow after 5 months of rehab and consistently doing isometric 90 degree lock offs on a bar for 30 seconds x 5 - other thing I was told to do during my warmup was to jump into a lock off and then drop off to warm the elbow up before climbing. Safe to say I woke up one morning and the pain had disappeared.

Anecdotally I did lots of isometric lockoff training Iast year and my elbow pain appeared a few months after it was removed from my plan so I’m thinking the strengths I got through isometrics was useful I staving off the golfers elbow

[Fiend]

Cheers.

The Pipe Of Power is a bit of plastic pipe with a loop of cord that's drilled through near each end. Wrap the loop around the pipe a couple of times so that it provides some resistance against pulling the wrist back up. Stick foot through the loop and gently start to pull the pipe towards you, maintaining wrist angle. This targets my tennis elbow very specifically indeed, is loaded incrementally to start, and is an isometric hold.

I do wonder if there might be a bit of nerve issues exacerbating mine as well. I've occasionally had some mild pain going down the forearm towards thumb and finger, and also a tiny bit around triceps. My right shoulder is permanently mildly impinged and sometimes flares up more than others. I've been doing tricep stretches and shoulder stretches as well as a bit of shoulder exercise to try to alleviate that possible issue.

The TE was particularly bad Sat night and Sunday after gorse clearing. I went to the gym yesterday, initially fucking hating it because I wasn't out climbing, but did 50 mins weights and 55 mins stretching. I did bench press, shoulder press, light lat pulldowns, and medium rows (these seem counter-intuitive, but I remember I checked last time, and even with heavy weights, the forearm extensors connected to my TE site aren't actually loaded with dumbbell rows!) with no pain whatsoever. I felt a mild twinge lifting a bar off the sit-up bench/rack with my palms facing towards me, that's it. My TE feels a lot better this morning than the previous morning.

[Fultonius]

Literally just been having a conversation about injuries with a guy at TCA and I was saying I think climbers have a bad habit of ticking just under the injury level, then on a "rest day" throw themselves into some form of manual labour (sanding, sawing, pulling out gorse) and treat it like a marathon effort! This additional loading is often what sends you over the edge.

[SA Chris]

I've knackered mine building a trampoline and putting the springs in using a pair of pliers, and previous to that moving concrete slabs around carrying them by reverse gripping the sides. In hindsight both very stupid.

[Fiend]

Literally just been having a conversation about injuries with a guy at TCA and I was saying I think climbers have a bad habit of ticking just under the injury level, then on a "rest day" throw themselves into some form of manual labour (sanding, sawing, pulling out gorse) and treat it like a marathon effort! This additional loading is often what sends you over the edge.

Yesssss 
A couple of weeks ago, I was like "Fuck, this elbow is fucked, I'm going to have to ease off on the training and bouldering, what else can I do?? Okay....Easy Trad (great), stamina training / falling practise (fine within limits), more involvement with guidebook work / checking / cleaning (partly fine but then....)". So of course I take the latter and get carried away with it because it's kinda rewarding in it's own way, and then push that too far. What a knob.

With the cleaning stuff:
Sawing - fine, it's quite gentle with the saw I have
Moving cut trees down - risky, have to avoid any sharp / bent arm pulls
Secateurs - bad, pinching
Hauling rocks to make swamp bridges - fine, just like easy deadlifts
Pulling out brambles / fern stumps - bad, too much pulling and jerking
Digging out dirt - okay as long as it's methodical
Hacking out roots / stubborn plants - bad, too much force and gripping
Brushing / scrubbing - fine, quite gentle

Naturally it's the movements that are fairly high load PLUS fairly dynamic (loading/unloading) that are the problem, along with changing of arm angle and gripping something tightly. I do think using a spade might be okay with the angle of my back arm (right arm) and how it would be pushing.

[cowboyhat]

I know i've mentioned it before but just to reiterate for newbies etc

To treat the outside forearm tennis elbow the Theraband Flexbar has been successful for me through several iterations of the problem.

[joel]

Literally just been having a conversation about injuries with a guy at TCA and I was saying I think climbers have a bad habit of ticking just under the injury level, then on a "rest day" throw themselves into some form of manual labour (sanding, sawing, pulling out gorse) and treat it like a marathon effort! This additional loading is often what sends you over the edge.

 - Exactly this. I built a woody in my garage on my own over lockdown, and managed to knacker my elbow drilling holes in a concrete ceiling (with a rubbish drill) like an idiot. I had to stop climbing totally for 3 weeks and even after that it hadn't really improved with all that rest, plus stretching, theraband and massage.

I then splashed out on an armaid and it got better in a week. I would strongly recommend this thing. It is expensive but the way it works is so good and might save you money in the long term on professional massage/medical consultations etc.

[tomtom]

Sorry to hear the elbows are still wonky Fiend

Number of solutions = number of people you ask....

I've tried the finger spoke things (did nothing) and the theraband flex bar (did nothing) for a while - and in the end I found that regular TRX-ing (esp Prone I T) seemed to really help it. 

I've a green theraband flex bar in a box somewhere (post house move) that you're welcome to pick up if you want to try it.

[cowboyhat]

Maybe semantics but TRX feels like treating the cause rather than the acute pain...?

Obviously long-term, yes; you should be treating the likely weakness/ imbalance/ overuse that has caused all this and I advocate it wholly in my capacity as whim driven non medical professional.

[sheavi]

This article is likely to be useful. https://physioclinician.medium.com/management-of-tennis-elbow-vs-actual-tennis-elbow-de508bfbd803

[mrjonathanr]

Mine have got steadily worse since February (tennis elbow).

Weirdly they can be agony one day and ok the next for no apparent reason.

This potentially sounds like more of a nerve impingement thing rather than tendon damage?

That was my first thought when I read that, but I’m no physio.

To pick up on Tomtom’s point, having suffered with elbow issues (mostly golfers) and taken a visceral dislike to them, I decided to work on shoulder strength and stability once a week this autumn and winter, because all the force gets transmitted through the shoulder downwards. Anecdotal, but so far, so good.

[T_B]

Mine have got steadily worse since February (tennis elbow).

Weirdly they can be agony one day and ok the next for no apparent reason.

This potentially sounds like more of a nerve impingement thing rather than tendon damage?

That was my first thought when I read that, but I’m no physio.

Yes could be as last time I had this some kind of shoulder impingement was involved. I’m hunched over a desk all day/using a mouse too.

I get a tiny bit of numbness coming through to my fingers/shooting pains when warming up.

[Fiend]

Thanks all, this is really appreciated how many people have chipped in with their wildly differing n=1 anecdotes genuinely helpful and supportive ideas and advice.

Joel - I am considering an armaid. What does it do in terms of muscle / tissue massage that I can't do myself with some fairly brutal application of the other hand (that's talking about dealing with the TE arm, not any other appendage)


Tomtom - yes plenty of ways to skin a cat, depending on: severity, location within the tendon area (my previous one that I started this thread about was further in on the arm, towards the bicep), previous injury history, acuteness vs chronicness, strength / training history, influence of the rest of the chain, nerve issues etc etc. Although there are general core principles of stimulating and retraining the tendon without aggravating it, and sorting out root causes if they can be determined.

The one thing I think everyone agrees on is fuck DIY and fuck gardening. (actual experience from GE 16 years ago too)


Cowboyhat - you make a good point. I'm not bothered about the level of pain in terms of discomfort, more for the level of injury and tendon damage it represents. If someone could scan it and say (very hypothetically) "Yeah it's 95% intact and functional, but there's inflammation and nerve impingement causing excess pain", then that would be fine. The current level of pain is worrying me in terms of how much injury it implies (and I've been avoiding painkillers to avoid masking it).

What I'm aiming for is doing the most suitable rehab, exercise and therapy to stimulate healing as quickly as possible without reaggravating it - BUT also doing whatever I can to tackle the root cause, because that obviously needs to be done, and it gives me another beneficial physical thing to focus on.


Sheavi - thanks, will read.


Mrjr - yes I'm going to tackle shoulders more. I have been doing stuff this winter, mostly IYTs with light dumbbells, but that might have not had enough effect. I think I have fairly strong, bulky, and highly immobile and probably quite imbalanced shoulders - prone to mild impingement. Give the stuff that really kicked off my TE was steepish burly crimping, it could well be shoulders letting me down. Again, something useful to focus on whilst I'm once more not on the Depot 30.