[Ged]

"Whether or not its better to do that rather than artificially using Resin to reinforce holds and gear placements to ensure safety (ruining the feel of the holds) and spending 20+ 50+ 100+ sessions on a toprope and some massive H/E grade for an 8m climb is again open to debate"

Is this just implying a hypothetical situation, or suggesting it has been done in the County? By Franco Cookson? Can't quite tell from the tone.

[webbo]

"Whether or not its better to do that rather than artificially using Resin to reinforce holds and gear placements to ensure safety (ruining the feel of the holds) and spending 20+ 50+ 100+ sessions on a toprope and some massive H/E grade for an 8m climb is again open to debate"

Is this just implying a hypothetical situation, or suggesting it has been done in the County? By Franco Cookson? Can't quite tell from the tone.

I was querying this earlier. If it’s been done,it’s a major WTF situation.

[carlisle slapper]

Yes the hole Alex has is pinky in in the picture is now totally plastered with Resin. Nothing lasts is also covered with it on about 4 or 5 footholds, the key handholds on the right wall and the skyhook placement has loads on (despite a bomber pecker being all of 75cm to the right)

There is a grey area here in that i agree with preserving rock for future generations by limiting erosion, but i personally dont agree with using glue to put holds back on or to change the nature of gear placements. We stabilise bowden and other crags which show wear on footholds but we've taken years trying to find an almost invisible solution which maintains the surface texture. After i saw it on nothing lasts i asked Franco to use superglue on sandy rock in the future if he was worried. its a proper artificial, worse than pof-fest on that route now after one ascent. His next test run seems to have been on the Howlerhirst wall with Gorilla resin glue. After seeing this on his first session Alex suggested learning by using random rocks on the ground rather than on key holds on the countries nicest lines. I'm sure it was well intentioned in a david baddeil in monkeydust kind of way but that hold really didn't need it. Its a big shame to me as that devil hang is one of the coolest holds going.

I've actually just found a really good low viscosity superglue and Steve has got the BMC to help fund it, whilst this is 90% for hold repair at Bowden, hopefully we can get some of this to Franco if he needs to stabilise some poor rock. Resin is definitely not the way forward and please don't use it anyone.

[Ged]

Bloody hell that's a tragedy.  It's a while since I've been in the County, but I can't imagine seeing a place as beautiful as that with resin plastered on the holds.  I'm not in the market for doing these things (aside from the fact I now live in Devon, I can't boulder that hard, or, for that matter, leave the house without a pram and a load of nappies at the moment), but I don't think I'll be alone in saying that I think this practise is bang out of order. 

[Franco]

Just on the glue front first off, as that's the most important point raised by Dan and I want to get this straight.

On Nothing Lasts I used Epoxy on 3 footholds and 1 handhold I think. I also put it in the back of the flake I put the gear on. I'd never had to stabilise a route in the Moors and Nothing Lasts was the first route I'd done this on anything. I immediately realised what a mistake I'd made. Dan pointed this out to me after I'd done it. There is no excuse for this. This is the biggest mistake I've ever made as a climber and should have taken greater steps to find out the correct steps. Luckily, the outcome is not horrendous on this. I've top roped numerous people on this line since and none have raised it as a major issue. 

On the Howlerhirst Wall I used Gorilla Glue (isn't this superglue?) on 3 pockets. I could see that the edge of the pockets were starting to wear and wanted to put a stop to this. I regularly attend the NE BMC meetings and superglue is meant to be the way to reinforce sandstone in the county - I really must make it clear though that I've only done this a few times (I think Dan & Steve Blake were meant to be putting something together on this? - would certainly be useful anyway). I did put too much in what I thought was the gear pocket and this has left a smoother finish than natural, which again is not acceptable - I should have made sure I knew what I was doing. What I really didn't want to happen was to fall on the gear and smash the pocket.  I've since learnt from friends in the peak district that this is the result of potentially using old glue and not dabbing it away immediately. I sincerely regret having done this. I think making 2 mistakes of this ilk on two of the best lines in the county is shocking to be honest. I feel pretty bad about it. I don't think Alex has ever talked to me about the use of glue?

I agree that preserving routes is a complex problem. I'm open and happy to say that I siege most of my harder headpoints and this brings with it a lot of wear. Even on my most sieged lines however (e.g. Nothing Lasts), I'm probably producing the amount of wear that 10 teams would produce ground up. So ultimately whatever problems I'm encountering now, the routes are going to be encountering a few years down the line anyway.

I think going forward there needs to be a plan for what we do with routes like these, as they're not going to last in whatever style they're done. Personally, I don't think long-term sieges on most of the sandstone in Northumberland is really very ethical.

[Franco]

*Just re-read that and realised that it sounds like I used epoxy out of choice. It was out of ignorance. I got some to repair a tile at home from a guy in a DIY shop and then assumed it was the same as superglue (which I'd heard of people using on county routes). Ignorance is perhaps not a defence, as I should have read up on it more, but I just assumed glue would either soak in or rub off. As I say, it doesn't effect Nothing Lasts very much and will probably act to preserve it in its current state.

[Fiend]

Well now. That's a good reply and contribution to this. And incidentally, regardless of your projected persona, credit where it's due: Nothing Lasts was also an incredible LGP.

[Will Hunt]

That's an honest response, Franco. It's a shame that you didn't test what you were using on an unimportant piece of rock beforehand but what's done is done.

I've read a draft guide to stabilisation that Bonjoy has produced. It sounds like Steve Blake and co are producing something similar? It would be interesting to see if they advocate the same things?
I seem to remember that Jon was concerned that lots of people were so scared of attempting to glue stuff and somehow getting it wrong, that this was preventing people from doing vital stabilisation work. I think the golden rule is to test what you're doing somewhere that it won't matter before setting to.

I've glued a few footholds at Yeadon which I'd noticed were getting bigger and bigger. I just used a simple runny superglue and let some soak into the rock. It didn't affect the appearance of the rock and those bits seem to have stabilised nicely.

[webbo]

I tried the method suggested by bonjoy on a crack in one the pavers on my patio. It’s North Yorkshire sandstone and although the crack looks sealed, you can tell there is something on the rock.
Maybe what works on courser sandstones isn’t so good on the finer grained stuff.

[Johnny Brown]

Gorilla Glue (isn't this superglue?)

No it isn't. GG is polyurethane based and is activated by moisture, which causes it to foam up and expand. I've used it a bit for DIY and don't like it as it is so messy. Superglue is cyanoacrylate based, clear, and evaporates off to leave very little residue.

[tomtom]

I’ve used superglue on very sandy holds on Cheshire sandstone - and it’s worked as well as being imho invisible.

It doesn’t get high traffic though and tends to be small spots rather than great gashes of eroded footholds etc...

[carlisle slapper]

I appreciate the apology.

If you read the last post Steve and I will sort you out with some, Steve does his tests on his garden wall. with normal superglue, it might need dabbed if its been opened or is cold, but with the low viscosity stuff it just sucks straight in so doesn't build up.

Infact i'd go as far as to advise most people on here not to use normal superglue in cold weather as its pretty finnecky once opened and even that can gloop up. Instead i'd advise getting the low viscosity version available from industrial suppliers. https://www.sureloc-direct.co.uk/index.php/cyanoacrylate-industrial-adhesives/ca5-thin-grade-super-glue-1-x-20gm.html
I tried to wreck a bit of house rock with it last week after applying it to an already applied area and it still absorbed in. yeadon is a clear case in yorkshire for preservation, great lines but v soft in a few places. The low viscosity glue darkens the rock more initially but it disappears almost completely after drying. This'll likely vary between grain types so ideally pick a crap bit not on a problem but nearby to test it first.

My personal stance Is to avoid foot hold erosion but not to artificially preserve the difficulty of climbs, for somewhere like sandy it is never going to see a volume of traffic which would even need stabilised, nor would howlerhirst as a rule. Its only really used in areas where the worry is that big foothold scars will develop. EG on northern soul, they were starting to develop so i superglued the first 2 smears and they've stopped, i don't think anyone noticed but its stopped one of the best problems in the uk having its start wrecked. I've snapped holds off lots of hard projects in the county that remain undone, many are still climbable just not necessarily by me, i always just thought of that side as being part of the game. I can also see the argument for not preserving or glueing anything and just accepting our impact, yet when done well its a very invisible job, and when ignored you have examples such as Vienna, the crack, the light bulb, childs play to show what things can become if just left.

[Bonjoy]

The article I wrote featured in a BMC newsletter and can be found here - https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx%3Fid%3D1580&ved=2ahUKEwiOhYfKxdndAhURDuwKHXF6AyEQFjABegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1isWJFgoTPiZNz5ju2B43m
In the article I explained the pros and cons of superglue use and my rationale for writing an article. I acknowledge that improper sealing will do more harm than good and argue that full knowledge is better than partial knowledge. I cover the mistakes Franco admits he made. I'd like to think anyone who reads it would think very carefully before doing anything and avoid these and other mistakes.
It's worth a read I think.

[SB]

To add to the debate on stabilisation.

Along with a couple of others, I have been discretely applying various 'stabilisers' for over 12 years in the county. I along with a number of others from different areas in the UK have shared our experience with the BMC who were going to produce a best practice guide of some sort.  Over the years the scale of the issue in Northumberland,(For example at Bowden.) has been industrial, rather than little bits of damage here and there. The scale of this damage, combined with the low viscosity of superglues, and the issues that can bring, (Such as glazing.) led myself and others here to use commercial masonary stabilisers. These have worked well with apparent good penetration and durability and stopped much of the erosion dead in it's tracks.

Prior to the BMC collaboration I had some dialogue with the group who maintain Southern Sandstone. They advised that a 50% mix of PVA and water worked well, and over the last year I have applied that to good effect. It has the advantage that it can be applied to wet/damp rock.

As Dan alluded to, I have a variety of decomposing blocks in my garden wall that I trial stuff on. The low viscosity superglue that Dan has discovered also has good penetration and when applied properly doesn't seem to affect the surface texture. It's not scientific but I have hammered both the PVA and superglued surfaces on my wall and both have resisted significant blows without cracking or spalling, quite impressive.

The superglue does seem to darken the rock more than the PVA, but personally I'm more concerned about the erosion than any apparent discolouration. Given we plaster the rock with chalk and erode it, worrying about small areas being a bit darker seems to miss the point. The low viscosity of the superglue, and it's penetration does mean it is particularly good for securing small flexing flakes.

In my experience none of the compounds we've used will strengthen edges that are mechanically weak, (the thin lips of some crimps, or sharp edges on some footholds). They can still break, however, the effect on foot scoops and rounded holds sandy holds is pretty remarkable.

I also believe it is worth 'prophylactically' treating areas that are popular, protecting the natural patina before it gets eroded.
This has prevented some Bowden classics  (Y Front for example) from disintegrating.

It's getting late and I'm not going to ramble on any more. Suffice to say that while it's not a dark art, it is easy to make mistakes, as Franco has fessed up to. So I wouldn't endorse everyone starts slapping it on!

Regards,

Steve

[shark]

Steve,

I no longer work for the BMC but my recollection of the email chain was that neither you (or Dan) actually shared any detailed pieces on your experiences despite initiating a request for collaboration in the first place.

The Southern sandstone group didn’t produce anything despite chasing so the only substantive material for a best practice guide was limited to Jon’s excellent piece which we thought was best put out via the Peak Area newsletter as it was focussed on gritstone repairs.

If you want a best practice guide I suggest you personally take a lead on it and work with Dan Middleton on the collaboration because it didn’t seem to be happening of its own accord.


Simon Lee

[Franco]

As for the rest of Dan’s post. Grades, style, projects etc.

Grades for me are a way of comparing routes and describing what ball park things fit into. Any grade for a new route can be a bit out - How many routes originally given E10 remained E10 when they were repeated? Not many. 

Dan’s repeated 2 or 3 of my easier routes, so has no basis on which to imply the harder projects I do are overgraded or that I would have given this thing a huge grade. I’m not really surprised he found a highball E5/6 easy – hasn’t he climber font 8b+? Coincidentally, he reckoned the Horse was font 6c+, which doesn’t seem grossly out for an E6 solo. The only route I’ve done that is similar is Narcissus, which it’s harder than. Even if it’s E4, or even E2, does this really matter? If it is dead easy, then that almost makes it better. The I am You thing confuses me a little. Dan reckoned it E4 6c, which if it even exists as a grade, would not look like the I am You slab, with fiddly gear below a roof. Again, I might have got the grade wrong (it sounds like Dan may have climbed the feature differently if he mantled it) – That really was a very quick headpoint in a couple of sessions so not sure on that. I didn’t give the grade loads of thought – I mainly wanted to annoy my mate Mark by saying it was harder than his Savage Slab.  If that turns out to be E6 6c, fine by me.  Ultimately Dan offered his comments on those easier lines and I agree with most of what he said. It doesn't need to be personal. It’s really no biggy. The only one of my harder routes I know he’s been on is Nothing Lasts, which he didn't end up doing. He said he thought that this would be E9 to headpoint with his "bomber pecker" siderunner (I’ve had a lot of people on this line since and none thought this was on route btw). Dan saying this was part of what gave me the confidence to think it was easily H10 without. More to the point, just look at it - it's obviously a mental line.

Very few of the harder routes in the Moors have been repeated. Of those that have seen interest: The Moose (H7 - Birkett reckoned E8 after a top rope, still unrepeated after 9 years), Psykovsky's Sequins (H9 - downgraded to E8), Divine Moments (H10, downgraded to E9 after a very large tree was chainsawed out of the landing zone- this was an impalation spike beforehand that would have probably killed you), MYXOMOP (I thought it E8 6c/7a, Tom Randall thought it was probably E9 7a) - hardly evidence of wild overgrading. For what it’s worth I was thinking this thing was going to be in the H8/9 7a ballpark. The tricam was pretty good, with the difficulty coming from the moves, rather than danger. The hardest individual moves are font 7b if you find the right sequence, but they stack up to feel quite hard, add in placing a tricam and it starts to feel intimidating. Hard climbing can get fairly high grades even if it’s safe.

In the only interaction I’ve had with this team about grading in general, they’ve said that they’re trying to maintain hard grades in the county and that I should too. I don’t really see any reason for this. It’s quite nice as a historic anomaly and a bit of history that the area has a past of sandbagging, but I don’t see why in the days of everyone being so well travelled that we need to keep this up. Surely if someone comes to the county, they want to know whether the E7 they jump on ground up is going to feel similar to a Peak E7? This kind of falsely-modest grading is going to stop the exact ground up ethic that these guys seem so fond of. The Moors was even worse for this, with a similar situation where there were routes that were massive sandbags right next to soft touches. Surely it’s way better for both areas if we can get this cleared up?
It was interesting seeing this team talk about “taking E9” on UKC. This is quite a foreign idea to me that maybe reveals why there seems to be a bit of a clash going on. If I do a new route I “propose” a new grade, I don’t “take it”.  If they think that I’m walking around thinking I’m an E11 climber, then I can start to see why they’d think I was a bit of a nob. I have no delusions about my ability. I’d imagine that I’m a good bit weaker than most people on this forum, which is why I found the Howlerhirst Project so inspiring. It was a type of climbing I’m really bad at, right at my limit. You can justifiably question the ethics of shunting a line to death (probably <20 sessions on Howlerhirst), but I felt quite humble on this line, like I was working on something I was bad at, that people had tried and failed on and that I might succeed on, purely through caring more than anyone else. I think I need to pick my rock type more wisely in the future, but my efforts on these lines actually make me quite proud. Nothing Last in particular shows what any average climber can achieve if they put the hours in and are inspired to do something above all else.

I think all this is tied to something Dan said to me a while back – “you can’t climb anything incredible without being strong”. There seems to be a bit of an ideology among some boulderers surrounding strength. Maybe live and let live a little? Not everyone has to climb in the same way. You can be a really good Trad climber without ever bouldering font 8a – just like you can be a really good boulderer without ever climbing E8. As it so happens, like many people approaching their 30s with knackered ankles, I’m increasingly seeing the appeal of training and sport climbing etc. But in the meantime, if I want to work H13s to death without ever bouldering font 7c+, surely that’s fine? If people want to repeat them and say they’re actually H11, that’s fine too.

I'm obviously gutted I wasn't strong enough to do the Howlerhirst Project first, but I don't think any the less of these guys for seeing what I was up to and then pipping me to the post - quite the opposite, I'm massively impressed that Alex was able to do something that took me so long to link in just a few sessions. The better man 'won'. I’d love to get out and try something like the Young ground up, but there isn’t really anyone else in the county looking at stuff like this and I don’t imagine I’ll be getting an invite from these guys any time soon

Seeing as we're getting everything out in the open, it seems only right that there is some discussion of the landing these guys have made at Howlerhirst. I'm all in favour of a good landing in the right setting (scree/felled trees/ravines), but I think, as Dan’s eluded to already, the one they’ve made at Howlerhirst is quite bad. I'd say this is one of the most beautiful crags I've visited and part of this beauty are the boulders below the crag. The new wall that these guys have built to support pads is very high and evidently recently man made. I do wonder whether the same effect could have been achieved with temporary rope/ladders/wood/nets. They also appear to have jacked a small-fridge sized part of the crag off.  The crag was until recently banned for much of the year and we were only able to negotiate a better situation this spring. Maintaining good relations with other land users is really important and this really isn’t going to help. It also effects the landing of a classic E6. I sense whether crags like this turn into highball venues may be a bit of a topic of debate in the future, as this new line has 5 Trad routes of the same height either side of it. So that’s making quite a statement. There could be an argument for modifying all the landings, but considering the calibre of historically significant routes we’re talking about, this could be pretty divisive..

[Fiend]

  etc etc


Please stop waffling on about H-this and H-11 that. It's embarrassing.


In the meantime:

I might succeed on, purely through caring more than anyone else

What were you caring about??

[gme]

Whats an H grade? I presume headpoint but is it actually a thing that is used by people.

[gme]

The young ground up would be very impressive. You can jump from the crux but the top bit at 9-10 m is still pretty tricky.

Pretty sure you could get people out with you to try, i would be happy to come, 20 mins from my house.

[grimer]

Good effort all. My interest in this line comes from seeing Karin Magog's amazing pic of Steve Crowe going through the green door on Guardian Angel. It just looked the most beautiful buttress, and the line to the right looked mega.

Anyway, well done Dan and Dan's mates (god I bet there was some brilliant slagging going on at the crag, I'd have loved to have been there for that), and Franco, for the climbing inspiration, the efforts on sniffing glue and access behind the scenes, for being explorers and the passion.

Beer emoji style thing, you know the one I mean.

[Johnny Brown]

I think the H-grade thing is great. It makes clear a couple of important points - that these routes often don't get done in what would be considered reasonable style by the average climber, and second - that an onsight or ground up ascent would be both a different proposition and worthy of recognition in its own right.

I think all this is tied to something Dan said to me a while back – “you can’t climb anything incredible without being strong”. There seems to be a bit of an ideology among some boulderers surrounding strength.

In the old days of the Sheffield scene I'd have been right with you. There were plenty of climbers who'd fallen into a training trap, positioned themselves in some kind of pecking order down the School and thought they were ace, while ignoring the fact they couldn't climb for shit on rock. Disappointing sessions outside would only reinforce the idea they needed to train harder... yawn.

But that's a different world from being really good on rock like Dan and getting as strong as you can in order to own British bouldering in a way no one has before or is likely to do again. If you think that's hyperbole, go and do your research.

But in the meantime, if I want to work H13s to death without ever bouldering font 7c+, surely that’s fine?

If the rock can take it, then yeah it seems fine, if maybe a tad misguided. But given we're mainly talking about Northumberland sandstone it seems both ignorant and selfish tbh.

[cheque]

I sincerely regret having done this. I think making 2 mistakes of this ilk on two of the best lines in the county is shocking to be honest. I feel pretty bad about it.

Play the game Franco, you’re meant to be the villain here. You could at least blame it on a mysterious group of climbers intent on discrediting you. 

There were plenty of climbers who'd fallen into a training trap... ignoring the fact they couldn't climb for shit on rock. Disappointing sessions outside would only reinforce the idea they needed to train harder...

Let’s just all be thankful that this sort of thing doesn’t happen any more.

[Doylo]

Plenty of good and strong people these days. Alex Moore can obviously climb a bit and he was brutal on the board when I used to climb with him in Kendal.

[gme]

In the old days of the Sheffield scene I'd have been right with you. There were plenty of climbers who'd fallen into a training trap, positioned themselves in some kind of pecking order down the School and thought they were ace, while ignoring the fact they couldn't climb for shit on rock. Disappointing sessions outside would only reinforce the idea they needed to train harder... yawn.

Off topic but Really? Name them. There were one or two people at the school who could climb indoors better than out but 99% of the school users did hard stuff (for the day) outside. I can only think of 1 or 2 people who didnt climb 7C or above on every type of rock in the UK and abroad. Ditto grade 8 sport routes. We might not have been able to balance no handed up a grit slab but surely thats a pretty niche bit of climbing.

Now its really common and i know dozens of people who climb in the upper 7s and 8s who cant replicate it outside.

Back on Francos point i agree with dan. Historically you have to be strong to climb in the county and many of the old E4s and E5s, never mind the E6s required you to climb 7B ish and this was pre mats. The few E8s that existed were done by Andy and all have 7C+/8A climbing at a minimum. Again this was at a time either pre pads or with the early ones which anyone who used them would agree were not much more use than the beer towels that preceded them once you were 10 ft up.

[gme]

10 years on here and i still fuck up the quote function.