[User deactivated.]

I feel like when I lose weight I also lose strength/power at about the same rate. Obviously this means that all that has been achieved is hunger and misery.

For reference i'm 6'1, ~12 and a half stone 1st thing in the morning after going to the loo. Body fat is around 10%, so quite low already, but there is certainly still room for reducing further.

For further reference my diet is typically 'good' and balanced. When dieting I do count calories and macronutrients using a mobile app to ensure weight is lost at a sensible rate.

In theory, I feel that I have scope to lose a good 10lbs or more, but it doesn't seem to correlate with increased performance in actual climbing, fingerboarding, pull ups, etc...


Edit: perhaps volume of climbing/training needs to be reduced while dieting to prevent overtraining?

[shark]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

[jwi]

I've heard several people saying that they got worse at "climbing" (usually bouldering & short routes) when loosing weight. Not too surprising, everyone has their ideal weight* somewhere between death from starvation and legs no longer being able to support the body.

(* A priori a maximum must exist, but it doesn't need to be unique)

[User deactivated.]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening. I don't tend to eat after climbing, but haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

[SA Chris]

Clearly, if you are feeling knackered and making no progress it must be wrong?

Everyone has a different metabolism / body make up / physiology.

Personally I eat a small high carb meal before a climbing session, and have something light to eat afterwards, because I'm usually starving. If I don't eat before bed, I have a crap night sleep, and wake up feeling utterly wiped and with a grumbling stomach.

Mix it up and see what works. Dieting and training hard is a fine line to walk.

[shark]

Pretty unusual to eat a big meal before training. Apart from anything I think I’d throw up.

[SA Chris]

Yep, i can feel it dragging me down if i eat too much.

[moose]

I think we need a bit more context.  You feel you can lose another ~10 lb but we do not know how much weight you have already lost whilst in your performance plateau, and how long that plateau has been.  Perhaps the weight loss has not been substantial enough for any real gains.  Or, maybe you need more time to consolidate gains - a recruitment issue or similar - you need time for the body to get used to its newly expanded physical limits?

+1 for jwi's anecdotal evidence of loss of bouldering ability with weight loss.  I lost around 3 stone after an operation, I eventually regained almost a stone but have never got anywhere close to my old grit bouldering form.  So, rather than resolve the issue by adopting a sensible structured diet and training plan I just became a sport climber!

[User deactivated.]

I think we need a bit more context.  You feel you can lose another ~10 lb but we do not know how much weight you have already lost whilst in your performance plateau, and how long that plateau has been.  Perhaps the weight loss has not been substantial enough for any real gains.  Or, maybe you need more time to consolidate gains - a recruitment issue or similar - you need time for the body to get used to its newly expanded physical limits?

I began climbing 3 and a half years ago at around 14 stone coming from a background of martial arts and weightlifting. Core and overall body strength were already good, which allowed me to quickly (~6 months) get up to V3/4 sort of standard with climbing technique being the limiting factor. Over the past 3 years I've gradually come down to the weight of 12 and a half stone and increased max boulder grade to V7 and redpoint routes up to 7b+.

However I attribute this improvement entirely to better technique as I am no better on a campus/finger board than I was after just 6 months of climbing (admittedly shouldn't have got on either so soon but seems like I got away with it) despite the weight loss.

I reached 12 and a half stone a year ago, began following the Eva Lopez fingerboard plan and saw zero progress in 6 months, other than sometimes getting marginally stronger for a few sessions and then weaker again the next few with no rhyme or reason (diet/stress/sleep all stable). Still the general trend over the period was zero progress for finger strength - though I did manage to gain upper body strength to achieve one arm pull ups which would suggest there's nothing physically wrong with me.

For the last few months I've been following the Barrows sport climbing plan for an upcoming trip and have seen significant improvements to (power)endurance. Strength and absolute top end power naturally dipped a little, but nothing too concerning. 6 weeks ago I decided to cut weight further and got down to 12 stone 2 but just noticed my strength, power diminishing further  and even endurance suffered slightly. I've gained the weight back and they have somewhat returned (strength and power still lower than prior to recent diet).

I go on my sport climbing trip in 3 weeks so I'm not going to change anything else now and will start to taper down my training. When I return I want to focus 100% on bouldering and specifically finger strength to weight ratio. God help me

[Oldmanmatt]

Too much, too fast.

Rather than set a precise target weight, allow yourself to settle into a suitable diet and let the weightloss follow suit.
The symptoms you describe fit (with normal internet diagnosis caveats) or at least seem to hint at overtraining/under eating.
You are aiming for a climbing trip, not your one shot at an Olympic gold.

If one of my clients started reporting such symptoms, I’d be reassessing everything.

[monkoffunk]

Have you changed what and how much you eat pre training/climbing during your dieting phase from your non dieting phase?

[tomtom]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/03/how-lose-weight-in-shower-notes-queries?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[thekettle]

I've heard several people saying that they got worse at "climbing" (usually bouldering & short routes) when loosing weight. Not too surprising, everyone has their ideal weight* somewhere between death from starvation and legs no longer being able to support the body.

(* A priori a maximum must exist, but it doesn't need to be unique)

I definitely had this experience in my bouldering. I dropped 6lb from 9% to 6.5% BF, and definitely lost top end power with it. Went back up 6lb and bouldered my hardest ever.Gained another 2lb when I started on creatine and feel even better!
Yet to try weight loss for enduranc-y routes but it may be more effective there.

[powderpuff]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening. I don't tend to eat after climbing, but haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

My advice would be to eat your big carb filled meal 7 hours before training,so if you train in the evening carb up at lunch. Also It seems a mistake to me, not to eat after your evening session as this will hinder your recovery.

[teestub]

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening.

The phrase tea time seems to vary significantly in meaning around the country, are you talking about lunchtime, mid afternoon, around 5 o clock or later?

Also as others have noted, there's good evidence that eating some carbs after training is pretty key in improving recovery.

[User deactivated.]

Too much, too fast.

Rather than set a precise target weight, allow yourself to settle into a suitable diet and let the weightloss follow suit.
The symptoms you describe fit (with normal internet diagnosis caveats) or at least seem to hint at overtraining/under eating.
You are aiming for a climbing trip, not your one shot at an Olympic gold.

If one of my clients started reporting such symptoms, I’d be reassessing everything.

I always do my best to keep weight loss at 1lb per week after the first week where its usually more like 2-4lbs. Overtraining is a more likely culprit; however I haven't noted any obvious symptoms aside from my getting weaker!

I don't really care for a shot at the Olympics but I take my more modest goals seriously regardless.

 

[mrjonathanr]

An anecdote, but an instructive experience for me.

I was climbing in France one cold winter and looking more ripped by the day. Eating salads for tea, a little pasta etc. Started really struggling to progress on 2 projects at Volx and finally cracked, packed up and tootled off to the bakery. I ate two chaussons aux pommes, an entire pack of Prince chocolate biscuits and then back at the campsite scoffed a monster amount of cheese and pasta.

I did both projects the next day.

[User deactivated.]

Have you changed what and how much you eat pre training/climbing during your dieting phase from your non dieting phase?

The difference between maintaining my weight and losing it is ~250 calories. This is managed by making small adjustments to portion sizes throughout the day, so to answer your question - yes

[User deactivated.]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening. I don't tend to eat after climbing, but haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

My advice would be to eat your big carb filled meal 7 hours before training,so if you train in the evening carb up at lunch. Also It seems a mistake to me, not to eat after your evening session as this will hinder your recovery.

I'll give this a try

[moose]

The phrase tea time seems to vary significantly in meaning around the country, are you talking about lunchtime, mid afternoon, around 5 o clock or later?

 

That's always been one of those linguistic wrinkles that has interested me.   My own experience is that there is both a class and regional element.  At home, dinner was at noon-1pm, teatime was the main meal at around 4pm (Dad worked shifts and was up early, so we ate our main meal practically as soon as I got home from school).  Literary mentions suggest to me that this might originally have been a rural / factory labourer's practice  - up at 4am to milk cows / start shift etc, have an early main meal, in bed near sunset. University and life since has transformed dinner to lunch (at noon-1pm), with the main meal renamed dinner and occurring later, from 6pm to 8pm, with teatime disappearing.  I still have difficulty adjusting  when visiting home - I end up having my Mum's lovingly prepared tea microwaved 4 hours past prime!

[moose]

I always do my best to keep weight loss at 1lb per week after the first week where its usually more like 2-4lbs. Overtraining is a more likely culprit; however I haven't noted any obvious symptoms aside from my getting weaker!
I don't really care for a shot at the Olympics but I take my more modest goals seriously regardless.

I read accounts like this, and on the UKC "fitclub" threads, and wonder if I am a physiological freak.  For years, my weight has varied randomly within a roughly 8lb range - up and down, all over the place.  Admittedly there has been an overall trend (upwards... damn!) but I am still often 5lb lighter or heavier from Monday to Monday.   Yet other folk read "deep" physiological information into 1lb differences....

Incidentally, I am at my heaviest for a while now, +7ish lb average week-on-week from my weight when I last hit a RP peak, yet my fingerboard performance is my best ever: least kg assistance ever required for 1-arm hangs.  Bizarre really, I could explain an improvement in a muscular issue with a bit of added beef, like weighted pull-ups, but a gain in pure finger strength is unexpected.

[tomtom]

I always do my best to keep weight loss at 1lb per week after the first week where its usually more like 2-4lbs. Overtraining is a more likely culprit; however I haven't noted any obvious symptoms aside from my getting weaker!
I don't really care for a shot at the Olympics but I take my more modest goals seriously regardless.

I read accounts like this, and on the UKC "fitclub" threads, and wonder if I am a physiological freak.  For years, my weight has varied randomly within a roughly 8lb range - up and down, all over the place.  Admittedly there has been an overall trend (upwards... damn!) but I am still often 5lb lighter or heavier from Monday to Monday.   Yet other folk read "deep" physiological information into 1lb differences....

Incidentally, I am at my heaviest for a while now, +7ish lb average week-on-week from my weight when I last hit a RP peak, yet my fingerboard performance is my best ever: least kg assistance ever required for 1-arm hangs.  Bizarre really, I could explain an improvement in a muscular issue with a bit of added beef, like weighted pull-ups, but a gain in pure finger strength is unexpected.

Interesting Moose - my weight will vary throughout the week by maybe 1-2lbs measured at the same time every day etc.... But varies during a day by 2-4 lbs depending on hydration, size of meals, bodily functions etc.. (which I’d expect).

However I have a colleague of similar scrawny build to myself, who says his weight varies by up to 8lb during a week. He does no sport or exercise save cycling to work every day (2 miles..).

FWIW my weight has stabilised over the last year to about 11st 4lbs (I’m 6’3”) with no real dieting apart from ‘being careful’ when away on holiday.

[Murph]

I am always amazed by how low your BMI is TT. And the apparent lack of effort needed to get there. Incredible.

On topic - I find losing a bit of weight helps but it helps to hang out at the lower weight for a while first. If you’ve just lost a bit of weight then there could be all sorts of unhelpful processes going on. This means, as mrjonathanr’s anecdote infers, having a good feed does work wonders, and some of my most powerful days have been whilst light (for me) but after a good day of eating.

That’s me though, Dave MacLeod dropped a stone to climb 8C and immediately profited. I guess it depends on lots of things and what works for one person might not for another.

[tomtom]

I am always amazed by how low your BMI is TT. And the apparent lack of effort needed to get there. Incredible.

Stopping drinking over the last couple of years has meant I no longer have to watch what I eat really... I never drank much (10-20 units/week) but that meant I had to exercise some portion/desert control.

[abarro81]

An anecdote, but an instructive experience for me.

I was climbing in France one cold winter and looking more ripped by the day. Eating salads for tea, a little pasta etc. Started really struggling to progress on 2 projects at Volx and finally cracked, packed up and tootled off to the bakery. I ate two chaussons aux pommes, an entire pack of Prince chocolate biscuits and then back at the campsite scoffed a monster amount of cheese and pasta.

I did both projects the next day.

This is standard - if I want to get light for a trip I diet at ~1lb/week weight loss for as long as necessary (normally ~6-15 weeks and cut ~1/2 to 1 stone), then on the trip I eat more normally rather than dieting hard. If I want to send a proj in the meantime in the UK I eat more the day before I'm going to try it/the morning of trying it. I occasionally screw up and have a bad session due to dieting too hard for a day or two but can't think of ever suffering a longer-term "real" loss of strength when dieting. In general I tend to think that my absolute strength stays similar, but that means that for every kg I take off in weight I can add a kg to my hangs etc (very roughly)... When I then put the weight back on I take a hit, so it's not an ideal long-term strategy but it works for peaking for a trip/season IMO.

As others have suggested, I reckon if I ate 1,000 cal in one go and then tried to climb too soon after I'd feel a bit crappy, especially if it was 1,000 healthy calories as that's a lot of bulk to digest - I'd be tempted to spread those calories out from a couple of hrs before the session to just after it...

[Yossarian]

Wow - I’m the same height and can’t imagine dropping to much below 78/80kg... (11st4 is 71.5kg!)

I’ve lost around 17kg this year and have managed to make quite decent strength gains (both beef and fingers) over the same period. However, based on all the comments here i’m now looking forward to getting down to my target and then seeing if gains after that come quicker.

Earlier in the year I was experiencing quite a lot of residual pain in my forearms after prolonged bouldering sessions, exacerbated by any board or campus stuff. During the last phase of shifting weight - from 95 to 87-88kg - that pain disappeared entirely.

I was recently trying to dig up some previous threads about weight loss (and weight in general) vs performance. It’s quite heartening to hear about taller / heavier wads doing v hard stuff (like the 90kg chap mentioned recently) but it’s fairly obvious that the finger strength required to operate at that level and weight either came easily or over a long period, and most taller climbers would be better served by slimming down a bit.

[tomtom]

My legs have been described as toothpicks / knots on cotton before.. :D

[SA Chris]

I'm finding running is keeping the fat off, but a bit of muscle on, but on the whole a positive benefit.

[moose]

My legs have been described as toothpicks / knots on cotton before.. :D

I'm keeping clear of this discussion (for reasons abundantly clear to anyone with the misfortune to see me!).

[powderpuff]

Presumably you are sequencing things so you are carbed up before climbing/training and eating after with protein for recovery.

That said I’ve had a several successive weeks of gradual weight lot and absolute performance seems ok but I still felt run generally run down and have put a couple of lbs back on and feel more energetic for it. I’m treating this as a short respite and will try to lose those pounds again - maybe worth trying that for you?

I have my biggest meal at tea time (typically ~1,000 calories all protein and carbs) before climbing/training on an evening. I don't tend to eat after climbing, but haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

My advice would be to eat your big carb filled meal 7 hours before training,so if you train in the evening carb up at lunch. Also It seems a mistake to me, not to eat after your evening session as this will hinder your recovery.

I'll give this a try

I feel it works for me, hopfully you find the same, best of luck😊

[lagerstarfish]

only once have I lost weight and made no progress - that was when I had pneumonia and lost a couple of stone

I then had pleurisy (and continuing bad cough) for 6 months and was too weak to do anything whilst putting on the lost weight and so remained a bit shit at doing things

at that point I caught chicken pox (age 34) which further messed up my lungs, but didn't cause either weight or climbing performance loss

every other time I have lost weight through illness or poor life choices, I have increased my climbing enjoyment

[Oldmanmatt]

only once have I lost weight and made no progress - that was when I had pneumonia and lost a couple of stone

I then had pleurisy (and continuing bad cough) for 6 months and was too weak to do anything whilst putting on the lost weight and so remained a bit shit at doing things

at that point I caught chicken pox (age 34) which further messed up my lungs, but didn't cause either weight or climbing performance loss

every other time I have lost weight through illness or poor life choices, I have increased my climbing enjoyment

Remind me to never get on an airplane with you.

[Sasquatch]

I know BMI is a poor measure for most things, but I do think that if you have a bmi over 25, then losing weight is almost always bound to help you.  And for longer sport routes, that is probably more like 23.  I'd guess if its under 19-20, then gaining weight will likely help your bouldering.  There will always be outliers, but that's also a pretty broad range.  Inside of those ranges things become trickier to manage. 

[tomtom]

only once have I lost weight and made no progress - that was when I had pneumonia and lost a couple of stone

I then had pleurisy (and continuing bad cough) for 6 months and was too weak to do anything whilst putting on the lost weight and so remained a bit shit at doing things

at that point I caught chicken pox (age 34) which further messed up my lungs, but didn't cause either weight or climbing performance loss

every other time I have lost weight through illness or poor life choices, I have increased my climbing enjoyment

Remind me to never get on an airplane with you.

This is all part of a classic Lagers hustling smokescreen. Its part of his Olympic build up - a 2-3 year campaign of mis-information about his health and climbing ability, then BOOM - he’ll suddenly be on the UK team (sorry TeamGB) and leaving Ondra in his speed climbing dust.

[jwi]

I know BMI is a poor measure for most things, but I do think that if you have a bmi over 25, then losing weight is almost always bound to help you.  And for longer sport routes, that is probably more like 23.  I'd guess if its under 19-20, then gaining weight will likely help your bouldering.  There will always be outliers, but that's also a pretty broad range.  Inside of those ranges things become trickier to manage.

Assuming a uniform level of about 10-15% body fat I pretty much agree with these rules of thumb for fully grown men. For men under 21 and women I think the ranges are different.

[User deactivated.]

I know BMI is a poor measure for most things, but I do think that if you have a bmi over 25, then losing weight is almost always bound to help you.  And for longer sport routes, that is probably more like 23.  I'd guess if its under 19-20, then gaining weight will likely help your bouldering.  There will always be outliers, but that's also a pretty broad range.  Inside of those ranges things become trickier to manage.

At my height/age the difference between a BMI of 20 and 25 is about 3 stone, which is obviously huge. At BMI 23.4 right now I could lose a stone and not even be on the lower end of 'normal range'. Of course this doesn't account for excess muscle mass.

[SA Chris]

Sod BMI, use a mirror and common sense.

I can tell when I'm straying back into fatfuck category just by looking.

[T_B]

If you've only been climbing for 3.5 years there's loads to work on to improve without focussing on losing weight.

I'm at the heavier end of things for a climber but have climbed Font 8a, F8b at 85Kg/188cm. Historically I've 'cut' a kilo or so before my best performances but equally I was 1Kg heavier than average when I had my best run of bouldering.

Check out Dawid Skoczylas who is BIG and continues to operate at Font 8b+ level combining masses of power as well as finger strength.

Beware outliers and those so fanatical that they risk their overall health for climbing performance. Also people who wear knee pads on both legs.

[spidermonkey09]

John Dunne is the other extreme outlier!

[Oldmanmatt]

Sod BMI, use a mirror and common sense.

I can tell when I'm straying back into fatfuck category just by looking.

I don’t even need to look.
Just buttoning up my trousers in the morning is enough.

[dunnyg]

Maybe they shrank in the wash?

[tomtom]

Dawid didn’t strike me as big when I’ve met him...

[Oldmanmatt]

Maybe they shrank in the wash?

YES! That’s exactly what I said.

As she laughed from the bed.

Laughed...


And,

Laughed.

[Oldmanmatt]

Dawid didn’t strike me as big when I’ve met him...

Ooooooh! I say, Matron.

[Yossarian]

I'm at the heavier end of things for a climber but have climbed Font 8a, F8b at 85Kg/188cm. Historically I've 'cut' a kilo or so before my best performances but equally I was 1Kg heavier than average when I had my best run of bouldering.

This is music to my ears...

[Bradders]

haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

Others have touched on this already, but that's definitely not my understanding which is that your protein intake should be spread throughout the day in 20-30g amounts.

I think an important distinction needs to be drawn between dieting to lose weight and dieting for optimum performance. These are very different things. Whilst meal timing when losing weight might not be very important relatively (to, for example the amount of calories being consumed) it's much more important when trying to recover from a climbing or training session and ideally you should be aiming for a protein and carbohydrate rich meal within about an hour of finishing.

Of course, if you can't manage that it's not the end of the world.

This study might also be of interest:

https://www.trainingbeta.com/beast-fingers-optimizing-muscular-strength-to-weight-ratios-in-rock-climbing/

I would also echo what others have said about prioritising other things over trying to lose weight. I did all sorts of weird and wonderful things with my diet within the first three years of my climbing, thinking I might be able to help nudge improvement along. The only thing that helped was improving the quality of the foods I was eating and making sure to get a meal in soon after climbing.

[User deactivated.]

haven't the old theories of 'needing protein every X hours to prevent going catabolic' and 'only being able to take in X amount of protein per sitting' been debunked? The last I read on it led me to believe that a large protein meal will take a substantial amount of time to digest and so despite not eating after finishing climbing/training i'd still be taking in protein from the previous meal. Maybe this is wrong.

Others have touched on this already, but that's definitely not my understanding which is that your protein intake should be spread throughout the day in 20-30g amounts.

I think an important distinction needs to be drawn between dieting to lose weight and dieting for optimum performance. These are very different things. Whilst meal timing when losing weight might not be very important relatively (to, for example the amount of calories being consumed) it's much more important when trying to recover from a climbing or training session and ideally you should be aiming for a protein and carbohydrate rich meal within about an hour of finishing.

Of course, if you can't manage that it's not the end of the world.

This study might also be of interest:

https://www.trainingbeta.com/beast-fingers-optimizing-muscular-strength-to-weight-ratios-in-rock-climbing/

I would also echo what others have said about prioritising other things over trying to lose weight. I did all sorts of weird and wonderful things with my diet within the first three years of my climbing, thinking I might be able to help nudge improvement along. The only thing that helped was improving the quality of the foods I was eating and making sure to get a meal in soon after climbing.

I've begun timing my meals around climbing to see what difference that makes.

Having thought about it further it seems to only be my finger strength that diminishes when I diet. I don't notice this drop off in larger muscles - even in terms of absolute strength I.e. not just bodyweight exercises.

Before climbing I never had problems gaining strength (260kg deadlift, 140kg bench press), it just seems to be fingers, which to me highlights that it's probably more of a training issue in that I'm doing something wrong!

I use the half crimp for hangboard training but I do realise that I massively over rely on full crimping while climbing to the point of it being about double as strong as any other grip. Perhaps I should ban myself from the full crimp for a while.

[Oldmanmatt]

http://www.sportsnutritionworkshop.com/files/9.spnt.PDF

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ab85/b594b458874725fdbe76996fd5a2211d8a7f.pdf

And...

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/52/6/376.full.pdf

Upshot?
Timing and quantity are important.
Bodybuilders guzzling shakes by the gallon? Not too bright and haven’t read anything other than the magazine headline..

[Oldmanmatt]

Oh, yes.
This one.
(Sorry, just skimming through my library)

This is a very interesting study and well worth a read for anyone in the coaching/PT business.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph_Alemany/publication/6078674_Physiological_Consequences_of_US_Army_Ranger_Training/links/59eddea50f7e9bc36521f17f/Physiological-Consequences-of-US-Army-Ranger-Training.pdf?origin=publication_detail

[Sasquatch]

I know BMI is a poor measure for most things, but I do think that if you have a bmi over 25, then losing weight is almost always bound to help you.  And for longer sport routes, that is probably more like 23.  I'd guess if its under 19-20, then gaining weight will likely help your bouldering.  There will always be outliers, but that's also a pretty broad range.  Inside of those ranges things become trickier to manage.

At my height/age the difference between a BMI of 20 and 25 is about 3 stone, which is obviously huge. At BMI 23.4 right now I could lose a stone and not even be on the lower end of 'normal range'. Of course this doesn't account for excess muscle mass.

I agree that it is a huge range from 20-25, but body morphology and natural tendencies play such a big role in performance, that this range will vary massively for people.  If you are currently at 23, and find that you are not benefiting from losing weight, then i'd argue that instead of trying lose weight, focus on training instead. 

If you've only been climbing for 3.5 years there's loads to work on to improve without focussing on losing weight.

I'm at the heavier end of things for a climber but have climbed Font 8a, F8b at 85Kg/188cm. Historically I've 'cut' a kilo or so before my best performances but equally I was 1Kg heavier than average when I had my best run of bouldering.

Check out Dawid Skoczylas who is BIG and continues to operate at Font 8b+ level combining masses of power as well as finger strength.

Beware outliers and those so fanatical that they risk their overall health for climbing performance. Also people who wear knee pads on both legs.

85Kg/188cm comes in at 24BMI - right in the range.  I'm currently 78Kg and 176cm, and bouldering in the 8A/+ range.  The lowest weight i've ever been at while climbing is 75kg, and that was climbing 8B.  I could do with dropping 2-3 kilo's to hit "optimal" weight, but I'm not willing to suffer that much for it.  I'd rather enjoy my nightly beer.

[monkoffunk]

Sod BMI, use a mirror and common sense.

I made some marginal improvements to my BMI by realising that I was 1cm taller than I had previously thought.

Seriously though, my biggest weight loss from 82+kg to around 74kg coincided with my biggest grade jump since starting out (font 6C sometime requiring more than one session, to 7A flash). That also consided with more consistent training and just being generally healthier. Now I’m around 77kg and 7A+ maybe 7B.

Weight obviously contributed, no doubt lugging 5kgs extra up a problem makes it harder, but I think the way I feel with a certain diet and lifestyle (generally healthy and no alcohol) maybe contributes more to all round ability to train, stay motivated etc. 

Obviously goes without saying how that weight fluctuation is so context specific in the effect you get seeing that people with a similar height(183cm)/weight profile are climbing across the grade spectrum, and I’m not going to diet my way to 8A, but definitely have been guilty in the past of lending it more credence in my mind then actually going out and training hard. I’ll drop a few kilos for winter, but I’m not going to starve myself so I don’t have energy to pull on.

[Bradders]

Having thought about it further it seems to only be my finger strength that diminishes when I diet. I don't notice this drop off in larger muscles - even in terms of absolute strength I.e. not just bodyweight exercises.

Before climbing I never had problems gaining strength (260kg deadlift, 140kg bench press), it just seems to be fingers, which to me highlights that it's probably more of a training issue in that I'm doing something wrong!

I use the half crimp for hangboard training but I do realise that I massively over rely on full crimping while climbing to the point of it being about double as strong as any other grip. Perhaps I should ban myself from the full crimp for a while.

I think it's really important to remember that finger strength develops so flipping slowly in the vast majority of people. Given how long you've been climbing and your current grade range, you're basically through the level where an element of muscular strength and quickly developing basic technique will see you improve, and you're now into a zone where things slow down significantly!

The key in my experience is to avoid pushing it too hard too fast and remember that consistent, progressive training, eating high quality foods and regular climbing practice are far more important than trying to go really hard all the time or trying to drop weight in an unsustainable way. Quality over quantity all the way.

On crimping, Steve Bechtel (look him up, total legend) actually recommends training in the full crimp position for the exact reason that when things start to get really tough most people default to it. A good idea might be to vary your grip position when hangboarding and include a limited amount of full crimp work, and then when climbing try to force yourself to use other positions and literally drop off if you can't do a particular move without crimping. I've certainly had some success like that.

[tomtom]

I’m approaching the view that the half crimp is evil.

I used to use a mix of OH and full crimp - but in the last year/2 years started training FB’ing using the half crimp. Mainly because most people (on here) seemed to say it was the best way to train finger strength. I find that doing/using it I get quite a bit of low level pain in the first knuckle (from palm) PIP - mainly in the forefinger.

This coincides with the Schweizer and Bärtschi figure in this article in UKC - where the two bones are clashing and there is a big red circle..  https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/international_rock_climbing_research_congress_in_chamonix_-_a_summary-11220

(Sorry can’t post images for some reason)

Just a bit of a pet theory at the moment... probably should go in another thread...

[SA Chris]

Seriously though, my biggest weight loss from 82+kg to around 74kg coincided with my biggest grade jump since starting out (font 6C sometime requiring more than one session, to 7A flash). That also considred with more consistent training and just being generally healthier.

Correlation / Causation? Over what period was the weight loss / improvement?

[monkoffunk]

Correlation / Causation? Over what period was the weight loss / improvement?

Yeah well exactly. A lot of confounding factors.

Went something like this:

April 2015 - Font trip on minimal to no climbing let alone anything resembling training whilst working hugely unenjoyable job in A&E. Two 6Cs one in two sessions.
Big hiatus after this. No diet moderation.

November 2015 - just about managed to climb Devonshire Cream 7a at Ansteys, only sport route of the year. New job for a few months, happier, new found motivation. Started regular indoor bouldering again. Very undertrained, some sessions resulting in DOMS lasting until next session. Stayed consistent though.

Jan 2016 - started new diet, minimal to no alcohol, no shit, lots of vegetbles, sweet potato, lean meat etc. Weight post Christmas binge about 82kg. Dropped several kg quite quickly, first week even, probably water weight. Felt far far better without the booze though, trained more, less excuses.

Around 20th Feb 2016 - Font trip, did first 7A. 8 7A total that trip. Probably weighed ball park 73-74kg

March 2016 - French 7c in a session. Still my maximum grade though, partly though lack of trying due to more focusing on bouldering, of which max grade is just 7B at a push and not many of those.

April 2016 - 72.8kg. Minimum weight, have more muscle since then and a bit chubs right now for sure.