[danm]

It's a shocking statement but I can't see where the incitement angle comes from? In itself it's an extreme use of language which could be used to describe the deliberate policies of austerity and the calculated effect this would have on the population. The effect is beyond dispute, but what do you call it? Negligence, murder, don't care as they won't vote for us anyway, needed to be done - that can be argued over, for sure.

Going back to Boris and Cummings game plan here, someone has obviously done the electoral maths. They need to get enough traditional Labour voters who voted Leave riled up enough to switch allegiance to vote Tory, and also be as monomaniacal as the Brexit party to grab all those votes too. Their bet is the opposition will split the vote and lose out. They must have decided that the MEP elections represent a fair approximation of people voting intentions if they can make the election a single issue one. That's why Labour are making lots of policy announcements - they are hoping to broaden the issues people will vote on.

Unfortunately I see this quite pessimistically, mainly because the Lib Dems are not being pragmatic enough. Who cares if JC makes a poor and to some toxic caretaker PM? Big deal. Proper patriots would suck it up, get Boris out and an extension to A50 granted, and then go for an election but with a proper voting pact in place to make sure we don't get a Tory majority.

Labour likewise need to finally realise that FPTP is what is really destroying democracy in the UK and back PR so we move to a more cooperative and representative parliament in the future. As the world gets more partisan, the 2 party system makes things get more extreme as time goes on. It's the basic root of all our ailments, just look at the shitshow over the pond for where we're headed if we don't fix it, and fast.

[teestub]

Who cares if JC makes a poor and to some toxic caretaker PM? Big deal. Proper patriots would suck it up, get Boris out and an extension to A50 granted, and then go for an election but with a proper voting pact in place to make sure we don't get a Tory majority.

You see how much shit has stuck to the Lib Dems after coalition? Can you imagine how long it would take constituency voters to forget the Tory MPs who voted ‘comrade Corbyn’ into No.10, even if it was only on a temporary basis? You can imagine the Sun and Mail headlines already!

If anyone should be sucking it up to be pragmatic in terms of getting a workable temporary govt. it’s JC.

[abarro81]

Yeah, the obvious way to get a compromise temporary gov does seem to...er... compromise (so a right-wind Labour or left-wing Tory who seems to have no goals of being PM for longer than a few weeks as they're not party leader and aren't likely to become part leader)

[tomtom]

Brutus - I agree with many of your points...

Though like TStub, I don’t think the UK is ready to reconcile Leave and Remain yet... So I err on the side of JC’s neutral policy being weak rather than clever... I think (and clearly not alone) that its to try and appease labour leave voters - whilst not pissing off labour remainers too much..

Sadly, I suspect it will please neither... Labour is fortunate - it has a strong cohort of tribal voters and an extensive and very well organised membership (the boots on the ground) - but it will haemorrhage votes I fear. Why? JC is a divisive character... he can come across warm and friendly - but can also come across as barracking shouty union man. As TStub said he has cataclysmic personal ratings. Much as you like JC - can you Brutus see him galvanising and bringing everyone together on this? Can he warm those Tory voters who waver away from Leave or will he scare them?

Its a non from me..... we need a figure like... er how Nick Clegg was perceived in 2010... (for want of a better example)...

I fear the only thing that will bring people together now is either
(A) a referendum where ENOUGH people vote for the remain OR leave side for it to be clear (at least 55%...) this may be before or after a GE (which would be a horrible affair I suspect)
(B) No deal brexit. And 2-5 years down the line this turns out to be either (i) such a disaster that most people agree it was a cock up and we re-join somehow (Norway?) (ii) so great that all those remainers come around to it actually being a good thing.

[mrjonathanr]

Sorry to be gloomy, but I'd anticipate a no deal Brexit to bring misery and siren voices from the far right apportioning blame. Some of those voices will be well-heeled; Enemies of the People, anyone? I would expect them to gain a lot of traction while people look for someone to blame for their plight.

Trust in democratic institutions is being cynically weakened. Just because fascist ideologies have not gained much ground in Britain before does not mean it can't happen. It has happened before in other places, it can happen here.

I'd expect social division to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

[Oldmanmatt]

Ken clark or John Major.
Milliband, also.

Oh and TT’s last paragraph. Spot on.

[BrutusTheBear]

Here in lies the problem as I see it...  Personality politics, the dumbing down and manipulation of the masses (the persuadables as Cambridge Analytica would put it).  We don’t live in a vacuum, information and narrative is formulated by those with the power to do so.  You could replace JC with anyone you like extolling the same values, virtues and policies, I guarantee whoever it is they would receive the same flack.  None of this has anything to do with how he sounds, who he’s associated with in the past, his age etc.  And everything to do with the hyper wealthy having to give up the tax evasion, the back handers, the private contracts, the market manipulation etc.  They”ll tell us all whatever they can to direct the attention away from where the real problem lies.  Brexit is bourne out of these lies, the masses convinced they are jobless and poor because of immigration, the anger towards others stirred to boiling point.  Like the serfs we are, we entrust the ‘Bulllingdon set’ to run the show coz they really have our interests at heart don’t they?!  Well they’ve done a great job convincing the majority of this.  The whole fricken world needs system change and when the opportunity comes to do just that, we Hoover up the bullshit and say no we’ll stay right where we are because the papers say he makes his own jam and he doesn’t sound right..  The whole country needs to grow the fuck up!    

[abarro81]

I disagree Brutus.. whenever I've heard John McDonnell I've thought he sounded like a sensible and clever guy, even though I think a number of policies are too far left for me (eg private school asset seizure).. JC has never impressed me in the same way. Plus shit like calling for article 50 to be invoked straight after referendum..

[TobyD]

Sorry Brutus,  I tend to agree with Alex, there are many people on the left of the labour party whose intelligence and ideas I respect,  though I may not agree with many of them; Corbyn has done nothing that leads me to suspect that he is at all capable of any office in government let alone  prime minister. 

That isn't to say I don't think he could be a lot better than the current bunch of incompetents exemplified by Johnson, Raab and Patel.

[mrjonathanr]

Observer article about Paula Sherriff’s experience of abuse since clashing with Johnson about Jo Cox on Wednesday. The pattern of loaded language in parliament and hostility in the street doesn’t make for especially comfortable reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/28/threat-hostility-rise-female-mps-paula-sherriff-tracy-brabin-boris-johnson-brexit

[BrutusTheBear]

Whether you like them or not any socialist leader would be smeared and all possible efforts would be made by the MSM and the political establishment to discredit them.

[tomtom]

Whether you like them or not any socialist leader would be smeared and all possible efforts would be made by the MSM and the political establishment to discredit them.

True. But Farage and BJ are both getting a hard time from the MSM at the moment. I suspect if you were a Bj fan - you’d be giving a lot of blow back to the press at the moment (sorry - couldn’t resist!)

[Oldmanmatt]

Damn it, TT!
You beat me.

This is a very valid point, and largely undermines your central argument Brutus.

The right wing MSM, is seemingly as Brutus describes, but the centrist and left leaning (without venturing into the fully socialist aligned papers) are full of outrage at Bozo’s apparently corrupt relationship with the very “over arching, controlling elite and vested interests” Brutus describes.


Actually, they exist.

Of course they do. I’ve worked for many of them. I spent the nearly twenty years from leaving the Navy until the death of my wife, first running, then building and then designing and consulting on the construction of Mega yachts. That’s yachts greater than 500 Gross tons and 50 meters in length. Or, to put it another way, yachts that cost over £25M to purchase and 25-50% of that to run annually.
Essentially a servant, of course, not besties or confidant, but a servant who was invited to meetings over dinner or drinks. In the background of main saloons, during drinking sessions at Monaco Grand prix etc etc.
Even had to carry Lord (though not Lord at that time) Ashcroft home drunk, after trying to sell a stewardess to an Inuit fisherman.
Mentioned all of this before, at various times on here. There are lots and lots of people in that and similar industries who will have very similar experiences and stories. People often forget that servants are in the room...

So, why mention it again?

Well, because I think most of them will tell you exactly or something similar too, this:

These people hate each other. They exist in a constant state of cutthroat competition, more interested in getting one over on their rival, than dominating the masses. We exist as an afterthought. Things to be utilised or ignored. You won’t even be noticed or removed until you actually stand in their way. The idea of a global cabal, intent on power and controlling the plebs, is an over estimation of their malicious intent, and, frankly, of our importance to them.
If there exists any alliance, then it’s at most temporary, more likely coincidental and certainly more tenuous than the common portrayal.   

So, there will be some pretty powerful, wealthy people, opposed to BJ, just as there are those who stand to gain from him and his gang.

This, though, is one of the reasons I’m so worried about the breakdown of democracy in the West, right now. People who don’t even see us a people, do see a chance for personal gain. They won’t even notice how many of us get squashed in their rush to grab more wealth.
These are people who have grabbed every opportunity that ever presented itself, without ever considering it’s morality.

[BrutusTheBear]

Neither the MSM nor the right wing MSM would support a socialist....The fact that a section of the MSM would attack Mr Johnson just affirms their affiliation to the ‘Centrist’ neo lib establishment, they still won’t fully support a socialist LP.

[abarro81]

Well you're still fucked, because left-leaning non-tribal voters like me still think Corbyn's a bit of a dumbass and will vote Lib/Green instead... whether or not that's down to us being suckers. Why it is doesn't really change the fact that Labour could do with someone else in charge to help them win an election...

[tomtom]

Well you're still fucked, because left-leaning non-tribal voters like me still think Corbyn's a bit of a dumbass and will vote Lib/Green instead... whether or not that's down to us being suckers. Why it is doesn't really change the fact that Labour could do with someone else in charge to help them win an election...

Barrows is not wrong...

[BrutusTheBear]

And so we go round in circles because if we replace JC with another socialist we’ll have the same situation we have now and if we replace with a neo lib centrist we get more of the same shite we’ve had since Thatcher.  When what we need is significant social change.

If the political discourse you can come up with is referring to someone as a ‘bit of dumbass’, suggesting that you yourself may well be a sucker and you’re prepared to eschew positive social change on this basis.  Then I refer you to my previous comment about folk needed to grow up.

Try leaning further it would benefit us all...

[Oldmanmatt]

Brutus, you know Neo Libs are fully committed “free market, no Government” extremists, right? Not centrists. A centrist would be a Social Democrat (slightly left of Centre) or a Liberal Democrat (slightly right). Even the Cons are currently bemoaning their party’s usurpation by unmitigated NeoLibs. Thatcher started that move in the UK, Regan in the states; now we’re seeing the ultimate (?) expression of that as they seek to wreck the institutions of democracy and Government.

Enough of the “with us or against us” stuff.
History doesn’t speak well of either extreme, when it comes to systems of governance.
Some pretty glowing models and happy populations, currently living under Social or Liberal democratic models, though.
 

[abarro81]

I can (and did, above, briefly) expand on why I think Corbyn is a dumbass:
- He's never impressed me in interviews (and he doesn't do enough of them - smash out some good ones on Today, where John M has done, and I'll be more receptive)
- He called to trigger Article 50 straight after the referendum.. which is a straight-up dumbass move
- He's rarely impressed me in PMQs (though to be fair, most LOTOs, PMs and MPs tend to sound like idiots in this forum)
- Refusing to agree to a compromise leader to a temporary caretaker gov is a dumbass move

- Various other incidents, though I'll happily admit that I can't remember them well enough to know whether I'm judging based directly on what he's said or based on what I read in the FAKE NEWS MEDIA. It's not like I keep a list, so Id have to spend half an hour looking through old Guardian stories to find the kind of things I'm thinking of.

So yeah, he strikes me as a bit of a dumbass (feel free to replace with other vaugely insulting term e.g. douchebag)

I've never really paid attention to the IRA/Palestinian militant connection news stories as I don't know enough to have a view on them.

Try leaning further it would benefit us all...

I don't try to lean left or right, I just end up where I end up...

[teestub]

And so we go round in circles because if we replace JC with another socialist we’ll have the same situation we have now and if we replace with a neo lib centrist we get more of the same shite we’ve had since Thatcher.  When what we need is significant social change.

I’m not so sure about this, I think a younger, better presented better communicator with a strong message based around the scandi style high tax high high quality of services model, without Corbyn’s historical associations, would be way more palatable for a lot of people, and edge you towards the socialist paradisiacal sunlit uplands you desire.

[tomtom]

You can’t make any changes unless you are in power.

To be in power you need to appeal to a wider - and more central base.

Then you can make changes.

[Fultonius]

Well you're still fucked, because left-leaning non-tribal voters like me still think Corbyn's a bit of a dumbass and will vote Lib/Green instead... whether or not that's down to us being suckers. Why it is doesn't really change the fact that Labour could do with someone else in charge to help them win an election...

because left-leaning non-tribal voters like me

I get the Corbyn thing, the dislike and the fact people can't imagine him running the country. But Lib Dems? Really? They're not remotely socialist these days. It just shows how far the center ground has shifted that neo-liberal, soft-right (typical conservatives) are considered left of centre. Joe Swinson, if you look at her voting record, is a proper yellow tory.

[abarro81]

Maybe I'm getting right wing in my old age...

+1 to teestub's post

[BrutusTheBear]

Come on then folks, suggestions on a post card..  Who is the leader you desire?  Does this person exist? Preferably not someone bought or owned by corporate interests or the state of Israel.

[BrutusTheBear]

Fultonius is correct, the centre ground is skewed.  The LP has policies not dissimilar to the Scandinavian social democracies mentioned above but they are cast as being hard left  Marxists by the MSM.