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EU Referendum (Read 65716 times)

Will Hunt

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#1250 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 01:46:17 pm
It was such a ridiculous statement that I'd assumed that it was another of Matt's hilarious jokes  :shrug:

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#1251 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 02:40:29 pm
I started reading Dicey with his Wikipedia page.
Anyone recommend a biography or more reputable historical source?

Probably a hero to BJ, come to think of it.

A bit of hero to JRM. Dicey is one of the twelve people profiled in his recent book The Victorians - however, definitely not a reputable historical source. There are a number of deliciously vicious reviews that are well worth seeking out (as is also true for Boris' recent pathetic attempt at a biography of Churchill).

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#1252 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 02:59:01 pm
I started reading Dicey with his Wikipedia page.
Anyone recommend a biography or more reputable historical source?
Because first impressions are of an “Individual Liberalist”, who was only such if the individual was White, male and not Irish...

Aka a bit of a Twunt.

I will read further, but...



In 1860s Britain. Just 30 years after parliament had to pass an act to outlaw slaves being used in British colonies. It's hardly enlightened times compared to today. Maybe some historical perspective required as 95% of people would probably qualify as twunts to you on today's metric.

Whilst it was most certainly a throwaway line.

His vitriol and anti-Irish posturing etc, most certainly put him deep into Twunt territory even by the standards of the day. He died most dischuffed that the world moved on and ignored his crap, which makes the fact that so much of our current parliamentary procedure is beholden to his world view, even sillier.

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#1253 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 03:02:01 pm
It was such a ridiculous statement that I'd assumed that it was another of Matt's hilarious jokes  :shrug:

No, it wasn’t.


The man was a dinosaur even in his day. See my reply to Pete.

You were wrong Will, twice now, even my joke was closer to reality than your pompous crap of a reply. It’s becoming a habit.  I accept your apology though.

😜

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#1254 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 03:27:57 pm
Oddly though.

And I’m halfway into Dicey’s book on Irish home rule:

https://archive.org/details/cu31924028148132/page/n9

Dicey would almost certainly have been a Remainer.

If you picked him up and dragged him into the 21st century.
Pete is right, in as much as some of his views were “of his day”, and therefore, then, Europe was an adversary.
However, given his strong Federalist leanings (his principle objection to Irish home rule, was the notion that “Nations” were an archaic concept due for the scrap heap of history).

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44027520?read-now=1&seq=4#metadata_info_tab_contents

So, his book is far less vitriolic than his quoted statements (of which I have only found snippets here and there, with assertions by the commentators that he was strident in his condemnation of both the Suffragette movement/women and the Irish. )
(Hence the search for better biographical sources), but, still, looking  pretty Twuntish).
So I do wonder if he would have been far more socially liberal, now, given his politically liberal stance then.

Edit:

Sorry! I actually meant to point out that misogyny and racism are not exclusive to the Right wing of British politics, now or then.
(Being anti-Irish is racist? I struggle to think of a better way to put it, a better word, though I struggle even more than normal, trying to see how someone could view the Irish as a different “race”).

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#1255 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 03:41:36 pm
Further....

I strongly suspect he would not support BJ’s assumption of Executive authority in the current matter. Since, whilst he strongly favoured the “party unable to make government” should, with the people, support the ruling party, where it has achieved government through a small majority on regular matters of state, he was unequivocal in his rejection of that authority in matters of constitutional change, where he felt Parliament and the people should be sovereign. He reluctantly conceded that “referendum” was the least worst expression of that sovereignty.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rivka_Weill/publication/228204057_Dicey_Was_Not_Diceyan/links/5cefd1dba6fdcc8475f796fb/Dicey-Was-Not-Diceyan.pdf?origin=publication_detail

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#1256 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 03:47:50 pm



(Being anti-Irish is racist? I struggle to think of a better way to put it, a better word, though I struggle even more than normal, trying to see how someone could view the Irish as a different “race”).

I'd tend to use bigoted.

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#1257 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 04:01:08 pm



(Being anti-Irish is racist? I struggle to think of a better way to put it, a better word, though I struggle even more than normal, trying to see how someone could view the Irish as a different “race”).
I'd tend to use bigoted.


Ah yes!

That’s the word. I’ve had a three day bout of insomnia and read for ~8hrs last night until surrendering at around 6 this morning and doing shots before work.
Espresso shots.
Six of them.
Finished on shot 12, with lunch....
Now  decaf and much yawning.

To save anyone else having to read the last link...

“In Executive matters I hold that the Government of the day ought even though put into o􏰀ce by but a small majority, to be whilst it continues the Government, in general supported by good citizens. My reason is this, viz:- that in Executive matters the majority must of necessity be treated as the organ of the nation, otherwise the action of the nation is at every turn weakened. A party which is not in a position to carry on the administration ought not to hamper the action of the Ministers of the day. Moreover matters of administration are transitory. On the other hand on matters of constitutional change I do not think a small majority has any moral right to act with vigour. The presumption is in favour of the existing state of a􏰁airs, because on the whole it may be assumed to be the permanent will of the nation. Add to this that a constitutional change once made is, or ought to be, ®nal, and therefore ought not to be made by any body of men who do not clearly represent the ®nal will of the nation. Till modern times this has been the practice, though not the theory, of English constitutional government, and it is, as I have pointed out, recognised as a democratic principle in every true democracy.”
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 04:07:09 pm by Oldmanmatt »

andy popp

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#1258 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 04:05:18 pm
Historically, the Irish have certainly sometimes been considered as a race and subject to virulent anti-racism on that basis. During the great waves of migration to the US in the late nineteenth-century neither the Irish nor the Italians were considered to be properly white by many (they were not considered to be black but had no proper claim to whiteness).

SamT

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#1259 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 04:09:58 pm

I’ve had a three day bout of insomnia and read for ~8hrs last night until surrendering at around 6 this morning and doing shots before work.
Espresso shots.
Six of them.
Finished on shot 12, with lunch....
Now  decaf and much yawning.

Have you considered that the caffeine intake may well be linked to the insomnia..  :w00t: :bounce: :w00t:

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#1260 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 04:19:19 pm

I’ve had a three day bout of insomnia and read for ~8hrs last night until surrendering at around 6 this morning and doing shots before work.
Espresso shots.
Six of them.
Finished on shot 12, with lunch....
Now  decaf and much yawning.

Have you considered that the caffeine intake may well be linked to the insomnia..  :w00t: :bounce: :w00t:



Shhhh! Hush your mouth.

We’ll have none of your “Logical” thingamybobs here.

This is a local forum, for local people...

Looks like my PDF to TEXT software is also doing shots, possibly Tequila by the looks of it.
Looks, on my browser at least, like Dicey thought that “constitutional change, once made, should be anal.”
Does it look the same to everyone else?

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#1261 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 05:43:52 pm
Not sure which is more worrying -  insomnia and 12 shots of coffee, or that you just spent 8 hrs learning about an obscure constitutional theorist.

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#1262 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 08:41:21 pm
Strangely fascinating fellow.
His “dualist” concept of British government, as above, Executive matters for Government and Constitutional matters for the sovereignty of the people, is logically elegant in it’s apportioning of that sovereignty; a small majority (only) necessary for the former to have validity, a significant and large majority for the latter to be taken as valid.
 
He’d be doing his nut at the prospect of enacting constitutional change on the basis of that referendum.

I can only assume JRM was too comfortably reclined, on a commons bench, to properly read him and skipped a few pages/chapters...

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#1263 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 09:20:06 pm
I can only assume JRM was too comfortably reclined, on a commons bench, to properly read him and skipped a few pages/chapters...

As I understand it, Dicey was in favour of referenda, hence JRM's enthusiasm.

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#1264 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 10:27:52 pm
I can only assume JRM was too comfortably reclined, on a commons bench, to properly read him and skipped a few pages/chapters...

As I understand it, Dicey was in favour of referenda, hence JRM's enthusiasm.

Yes, he was, but he needed a super majority to be convinced, he explicitly stated that with a small majority, the status-quo should prevail, since change was not passionately sought.

He also believed that popular support needed to be constantly sought, on the basis that it would change with time...
He would have insisted on a second referendum or twi consecutive GE’s, fought on the constitutional issue, with significant majority, in both, in favour of change. Had the second shown diminished support, he would have said the change was not truly supported. To his reasoning, neither the referendum, nor the last GE, motivated or warranted constitutional change.
That is, I think, the basis of the learned dissent aimed at the governments actions and position,  from triggering article 50 onwards.

I didn’t grasp, that without a written constitution, such learned arguments carried such weight. I would have seen them as mere opinion. But, this sort of thing is supposed to be how we work and suddenly I grasp the “constitutional outrage” of certain individuals. The Speaker, for instance, is a guardian of these arguments. I thought Bercow an attention seeking Twunt (well, he is) but he really is doing his job.

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#1265 Re: EU Referendum
September 17, 2019, 01:48:17 pm