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EU Referendum (Read 279408 times)

Oldmanmatt

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#1250 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 02:59:01 pm
I started reading Dicey with his Wikipedia page.
Anyone recommend a biography or more reputable historical source?
Because first impressions are of an “Individual Liberalist”, who was only such if the individual was White, male and not Irish...

Aka a bit of a Twunt.

I will read further, but...



In 1860s Britain. Just 30 years after parliament had to pass an act to outlaw slaves being used in British colonies. It's hardly enlightened times compared to today. Maybe some historical perspective required as 95% of people would probably qualify as twunts to you on today's metric.

Whilst it was most certainly a throwaway line.

His vitriol and anti-Irish posturing etc, most certainly put him deep into Twunt territory even by the standards of the day. He died most dischuffed that the world moved on and ignored his crap, which makes the fact that so much of our current parliamentary procedure is beholden to his world view, even sillier.

Oldmanmatt

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#1251 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 03:02:01 pm
It was such a ridiculous statement that I'd assumed that it was another of Matt's hilarious jokes  :shrug:

No, it wasn’t.


The man was a dinosaur even in his day. See my reply to Pete.

You were wrong Will, twice now, even my joke was closer to reality than your pompous crap of a reply. It’s becoming a habit.  I accept your apology though.

😜

Oldmanmatt

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#1252 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 03:27:57 pm
Oddly though.

And I’m halfway into Dicey’s book on Irish home rule:

https://archive.org/details/cu31924028148132/page/n9

Dicey would almost certainly have been a Remainer.

If you picked him up and dragged him into the 21st century.
Pete is right, in as much as some of his views were “of his day”, and therefore, then, Europe was an adversary.
However, given his strong Federalist leanings (his principle objection to Irish home rule, was the notion that “Nations” were an archaic concept due for the scrap heap of history).

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44027520?read-now=1&seq=4#metadata_info_tab_contents

So, his book is far less vitriolic than his quoted statements (of which I have only found snippets here and there, with assertions by the commentators that he was strident in his condemnation of both the Suffragette movement/women and the Irish. )
(Hence the search for better biographical sources), but, still, looking  pretty Twuntish).
So I do wonder if he would have been far more socially liberal, now, given his politically liberal stance then.

Edit:

Sorry! I actually meant to point out that misogyny and racism are not exclusive to the Right wing of British politics, now or then.
(Being anti-Irish is racist? I struggle to think of a better way to put it, a better word, though I struggle even more than normal, trying to see how someone could view the Irish as a different “race”).

Oldmanmatt

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#1253 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 03:41:36 pm
Further....

I strongly suspect he would not support BJ’s assumption of Executive authority in the current matter. Since, whilst he strongly favoured the “party unable to make government” should, with the people, support the ruling party, where it has achieved government through a small majority on regular matters of state, he was unequivocal in his rejection of that authority in matters of constitutional change, where he felt Parliament and the people should be sovereign. He reluctantly conceded that “referendum” was the least worst expression of that sovereignty.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rivka_Weill/publication/228204057_Dicey_Was_Not_Diceyan/links/5cefd1dba6fdcc8475f796fb/Dicey-Was-Not-Diceyan.pdf?origin=publication_detail

kelvin

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#1254 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 03:47:50 pm



(Being anti-Irish is racist? I struggle to think of a better way to put it, a better word, though I struggle even more than normal, trying to see how someone could view the Irish as a different “race”).

I'd tend to use bigoted.

Oldmanmatt

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#1255 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 04:01:08 pm



(Being anti-Irish is racist? I struggle to think of a better way to put it, a better word, though I struggle even more than normal, trying to see how someone could view the Irish as a different “race”).
I'd tend to use bigoted.


Ah yes!

That’s the word. I’ve had a three day bout of insomnia and read for ~8hrs last night until surrendering at around 6 this morning and doing shots before work.
Espresso shots.
Six of them.
Finished on shot 12, with lunch....
Now  decaf and much yawning.

To save anyone else having to read the last link...

“In Executive matters I hold that the Government of the day ought even though put into o􏰀ce by but a small majority, to be whilst it continues the Government, in general supported by good citizens. My reason is this, viz:- that in Executive matters the majority must of necessity be treated as the organ of the nation, otherwise the action of the nation is at every turn weakened. A party which is not in a position to carry on the administration ought not to hamper the action of the Ministers of the day. Moreover matters of administration are transitory. On the other hand on matters of constitutional change I do not think a small majority has any moral right to act with vigour. The presumption is in favour of the existing state of a􏰁airs, because on the whole it may be assumed to be the permanent will of the nation. Add to this that a constitutional change once made is, or ought to be, ®nal, and therefore ought not to be made by any body of men who do not clearly represent the ®nal will of the nation. Till modern times this has been the practice, though not the theory, of English constitutional government, and it is, as I have pointed out, recognised as a democratic principle in every true democracy.”
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 04:07:09 pm by Oldmanmatt »

andy popp

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#1256 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 04:05:18 pm
Historically, the Irish have certainly sometimes been considered as a race and subject to virulent anti-racism on that basis. During the great waves of migration to the US in the late nineteenth-century neither the Irish nor the Italians were considered to be properly white by many (they were not considered to be black but had no proper claim to whiteness).

SamT

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#1257 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 04:09:58 pm

I’ve had a three day bout of insomnia and read for ~8hrs last night until surrendering at around 6 this morning and doing shots before work.
Espresso shots.
Six of them.
Finished on shot 12, with lunch....
Now  decaf and much yawning.

Have you considered that the caffeine intake may well be linked to the insomnia..  :w00t: :bounce: :w00t:

Oldmanmatt

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#1258 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 04:19:19 pm

I’ve had a three day bout of insomnia and read for ~8hrs last night until surrendering at around 6 this morning and doing shots before work.
Espresso shots.
Six of them.
Finished on shot 12, with lunch....
Now  decaf and much yawning.

Have you considered that the caffeine intake may well be linked to the insomnia..  :w00t: :bounce: :w00t:



Shhhh! Hush your mouth.

We’ll have none of your “Logical” thingamybobs here.

This is a local forum, for local people...

Looks like my PDF to TEXT software is also doing shots, possibly Tequila by the looks of it.
Looks, on my browser at least, like Dicey thought that “constitutional change, once made, should be anal.”
Does it look the same to everyone else?

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#1259 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 05:43:52 pm
Not sure which is more worrying -  insomnia and 12 shots of coffee, or that you just spent 8 hrs learning about an obscure constitutional theorist.

Oldmanmatt

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#1260 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 08:41:21 pm
Strangely fascinating fellow.
His “dualist” concept of British government, as above, Executive matters for Government and Constitutional matters for the sovereignty of the people, is logically elegant in it’s apportioning of that sovereignty; a small majority (only) necessary for the former to have validity, a significant and large majority for the latter to be taken as valid.
 
He’d be doing his nut at the prospect of enacting constitutional change on the basis of that referendum.

I can only assume JRM was too comfortably reclined, on a commons bench, to properly read him and skipped a few pages/chapters...

andy popp

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#1261 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 09:20:06 pm
I can only assume JRM was too comfortably reclined, on a commons bench, to properly read him and skipped a few pages/chapters...

As I understand it, Dicey was in favour of referenda, hence JRM's enthusiasm.

Oldmanmatt

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#1262 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 10:27:52 pm
I can only assume JRM was too comfortably reclined, on a commons bench, to properly read him and skipped a few pages/chapters...

As I understand it, Dicey was in favour of referenda, hence JRM's enthusiasm.

Yes, he was, but he needed a super majority to be convinced, he explicitly stated that with a small majority, the status-quo should prevail, since change was not passionately sought.

He also believed that popular support needed to be constantly sought, on the basis that it would change with time...
He would have insisted on a second referendum or twi consecutive GE’s, fought on the constitutional issue, with significant majority, in both, in favour of change. Had the second shown diminished support, he would have said the change was not truly supported. To his reasoning, neither the referendum, nor the last GE, motivated or warranted constitutional change.
That is, I think, the basis of the learned dissent aimed at the governments actions and position,  from triggering article 50 onwards.

I didn’t grasp, that without a written constitution, such learned arguments carried such weight. I would have seen them as mere opinion. But, this sort of thing is supposed to be how we work and suddenly I grasp the “constitutional outrage” of certain individuals. The Speaker, for instance, is a guardian of these arguments. I thought Bercow an attention seeking Twunt (well, he is) but he really is doing his job.

Oldmanmatt

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#1263 Re: EU Referendum
September 17, 2019, 01:48:17 pm

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#1264 Re: EU Referendum
September 20, 2019, 12:06:31 am

Oldmanmatt

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#1266 Re: EU Referendum
September 20, 2019, 10:39:47 pm
Another day, another sign of how healthy politics in the UK really isn’t...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-ally-emily-thornberry-piles-pressure-on-labour-leader-we-should-be-campaigning-to-a4242321.html?utm_source=bestforbritain.org

I'm not sure what your intention was in posting this but if it was to say that the labour party is in just as bad a place as the conservative party at the moment, I agree. They are spending an absolutely critical time in politics farting about with trying to reintroduce a 102- year old clause about  total nationalisation into their policy, and seemingly, trying their best to get rid of any MP with any talent, experience or intelligence. The treatment of Harriet Harman is a disgrace.

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#1267 Re: EU Referendum
September 20, 2019, 11:38:51 pm
I wonder how this will fare in the provinces?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100

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#1268 Re: EU Referendum
September 21, 2019, 03:11:03 am
I wonder how this will fare in the provinces?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100

John Lansman has a lot to answer for... ffs do momentum not see the irony in this “ A Momentum source told the BBC: "We just can't afford to go into an election with a deputy leader set on wrecking Labour's chances.”


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#1270 Re: EU Referendum
September 21, 2019, 08:35:08 am
There was rumour last week that a Watson was going to move to the LibDems / or was being heavily courted by them

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#1271 Re: EU Referendum
September 21, 2019, 09:18:11 am
I'm not sure what your intention was in posting this but if it was to say that the labour party is in just as bad a place as the conservative party at the moment, I agree.

Aside from the point of putting words into Matt's mouth, do you really believe that? Personally I don't think anything comes remotely close to comparing to the bizarro world the Conservatives are currently running amok in. The two examples you give - of a policy discussion (normal for a conference?) and reselection ballots for MP's (now cancelled afaik?) don't seem on quite the same level as shutting down the Houses of Parliament for 5 weeks at this "critical time in politics", and being taken to the Supreme Court for it, and also summarily dismissing 21 MP's. Maybe its just me?

Oldmanmatt

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#1272 Re: EU Referendum
September 21, 2019, 10:47:20 am
In fact, I find this hypothesis quite credible, though Bozo’s frequent and ridiculous lies seem to undermine any notion of skilful statesman beneath the silly mop:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/20/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-brussels-dup?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1568995905

Labour, are done, as far as I can see.
 I mean in my eyes, obviously I speak for myself, but I’d be surprised if there were not a good many who had wondered about tactically voting in favour of Labour; just to end the Tory clown show; but now will not.
Labour are rabid. Possibly even more self destructive than the Tories. Seriously, at this point in history, what kind of opposition party deliberately moves to scare away middle ground voters?

This is the disfunction I was referring to.  It has intensified since I posted.

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#1273 Re: EU Referendum
September 21, 2019, 10:51:37 am
Seriously, at this point in history, what kind of opposition party deliberately moves to scare away middle ground voters?

The Lib Dems?

Oldmanmatt

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#1274 Re: EU Referendum
September 21, 2019, 12:12:25 pm
Seriously, at this point in history, what kind of opposition party deliberately moves to scare away middle ground voters?

The Lib Dems?

Yes. Absolutely. It’s all of them.

The LD “revoke” thing is as dumb as the rest of it, just not quite so important right now.



 

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