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EU Referendum (Read 279352 times)

teestub

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#1225 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 11:12:12 am


But the judiciary seem to be waiting until the English Supreme Court makes a ruling....


* United Kingdom Supreme Court, important distinction here!

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#1226 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 11:23:35 am


But the judiciary seem to be waiting until the English Supreme Court makes a ruling....


* United Kingdom Supreme Court, important distinction here!

Yup.


Will it been seen that way, up north?


Obviously, the reasonable, the educated etc etc, will see that.

I was fishing for a position, but I’ve been reading through more comments now. At best, it will merely harden separatists into their stance, at worse....?

Somewhere in the middling of adjacent possibles, is growth in resentment, that extends beyond current separatist boundaries and calls more of the wavering middle ground to the pipes and drums of independence.

Yes Will, that’s a guess.

teestub

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#1227 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 11:50:25 am
I guess judges can only apply the law if their land; under Scottish law there was a case to be heard and it seems that the lack of an affidavit confirming the reason for the prorogation counted very badly against the government. The English court just said the case was ‘unjusticable’ as in none of their business.

I see NI court has now ruled prorogation was lawful too, but there seems to have been a different question asked here re: potential damage to peace process.

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#1228 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 12:12:34 pm
Yes Will, that’s a guess.

 :off:

I think you've made your point now.
I can generally tell when tongue is in cheek. Perhaps I should have clocked that it was something you'd copied and pasted but it didn't seem too out of step with the rest of the post or others that you've made, so how are we to know? Dunny also commented that it wasn't glaringly obvious  :shrug:


Looks like some of my guesses about Scottish law and its interaction with English law were well off the mark - happy to be corrected on that. In light of the Twitter thread that Stubbs shared (I notice that the commentator has since corrected himself on one point) there's an interesting question to be answered about independence of judges and how they arrive at their decisions. When No10 called out the Scots decision as being biaised all hell broke loose; when similar comments were made by a journo on Twitter it leads to thoughtful chin scratching. Anybody who's been watching the BBC doc about the rise of the Nazis will know the importance of judicial independence and of public trust in the judiciary - I'd like to know more about this but it's going to have to be a good explanation for a lay person. For instance: this from the Twitter thread doesn't hold a huge amount of meaning for me.
Quote
English constitutional law has been contaminated for a century by the parliamentary absolutism of Victorian jurist AV Dicey

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#1229 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 12:24:19 pm
Meanwhile BJ had just denied lying to the queen.

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-denies-lying-to-queen-over-suspension-of-parliament-11807566

I wonder if the bigger scandal may be in the covering up rather than the act here... although the act seems pretty bad

The ruling seems to all come down to intent. If there was no malintent involved in the decision to prorogue, it would be trivial for someone in government or one of their aides to testify and back it up by documenting correspondence. They would then have won the case and the whole issue would have gone away.

That nobody testified only seems to make sense if the decision makers are aware that any future release of correspondence would not back up their case and they aren't willing to perjure themselves. Or would that be being too cynical?

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#1230 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 12:24:44 pm
I think that’s a reference to more specific version of the axiom about “precedent making bad law”, or however it goes.

I guess further reading is needed here.

Sorry, for flogging dead horses etc. Had a stressful night and was enjoying the light relief of internet argy-bargy. Yes, I make sweeping statements. They’re for debating purposes, not deeply held convictions. There used to be a permanent subscript on all my posts, to that effect. I hadn’t noticed that it had disappeared in that site revamp, back-along (I was once puntered by Big iron horse, because it was repeated, due to a mistake in my settings and invisible to me as I was using Tapatalk in those days).

teestub

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#1231 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 01:34:53 pm

there's an interesting question to be answered about independence of judges and how they arrive at their decisions. When No10 called out the Scots decision as being biaised all hell broke loose; when similar comments were made by a journo on Twitter it leads to thoughtful chin scratching.

Hi Will I don’t get this bit, perhaps it’s my very carefully policed filter bubble, but all the sensible coverage I’ve seen has just noted that the individual courts have made their judgements according to the differences in the laws between Scotland and England, with no hint of bias or partiality. No. 10 were very quick to roll back on their initial ‘No.10 source’ (Classic Dom) leak.

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#1232 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 02:01:33 pm
I'm just not clear on what the differences in Scottish and English law are and how those laws have been applied (and how is this different from UK law?).
It seems that the English court ruled that it wasn't a matter for the court - so basically didn't make a ruling on the evidence at all.
The Scottish court ruled that it was unlawful. And they could look at the issue because Scots law does not hold parliamentary sovereignity as a central tenet (this is the Dicey thing that is being referred to). So how does this work? Why could the English court not look at the issue? Parliament didn't vote for or pass an act that initiated prorogation - moreover it was an action of the executive. In fact, a majority of MPs expressed dissatisfaction with being prorogued, so why does Parliamentary sovereignity come into it?

I'm aware that I must sound like a complete fuckwit, wittering on about stuff I clearly know nothing about, but I'd very much like to see a clear explanation of what's happened (anyone have a good link?)

teestub

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#1233 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 02:07:42 pm
I found the combination of this summary of the English position https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/11/english-judges-explain-decision-to-reject-prorogation-challenge and this round up https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/11/scottish-court-ruling-what-happens-next-in-prorogation-dispute was enough to answer a lot of those questions without going into too much detail that I got lost.

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#1234 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 02:30:29 pm
I started reading Dicey with his Wikipedia page.
Anyone recommend a biography or more reputable historical source?
Because first impressions are of an “Individual Liberalist”, who was only such if the individual was White, male and not Irish...

Aka a bit of a Twunt.

I will read further, but...

Edit:

Probably a hero to BJ, come to think of it.

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#1235 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 02:57:06 pm
From Gu about NI judgement

In fact, it was the argument that a no-deal Brexit would undermine the Good Friday agreement that was rejected. A claim about prorogation being unlawful was excluded on the grounds that it is being decided in the cases in England and Wales.

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#1236 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 03:28:12 pm
Wasn’t it actually that the ruling did not decree that No Deal would not undermine the GFA, but that it did not contravene a particular aspect of the 1998 Northern Ireland act?
Read somewhere a legal commentator complaining the the action was too narrowly defined, or some such.
As in they thought they’d found a sure fire in, and it wasn’t, but they didn’t test many other aspects, etc etc.

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#1237 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 03:31:42 pm
On BJ’s new wheeze - a bridge to NI from Scotland. When the idea was floated a while back this retired engineer wrote to the times

Quote
“On your front page Boris Johnson airily proposes building a bridge from Britain to Northern Ireland. As a retired offshore engineer, I know this is about as feasible as building a bridge to the moon.

“Many long bridges have been built, but none across such a wide, deep and stormy stretch of water. For a great part of the 22-mile route the water is more than 1,000ft deep. It would require about 30 support towers at least 1,400ft high to carry the road deck across the deepest part and above the shipping channel. In total the bridge would require 54 towers, of heights never achieved anywhere in the world.

“In addition, the trickiest section, Beaufort Dyke, was used for many years from 1946 to dump obsolete munitions. The Ministry of Defence estimates the total dumped at more than 1.5m tons. There are no maps of their locations.

“No sane contractor or responsible government would consider building such a bridge, and because of the weather conditions it would probably have to be closed for considerable periods if it did. The proposal is just another thoughtless soundbite. This is typical of Johnson. He simply does not have the seriousness to lead the country.”

This is straight out of the Trump playbook.

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#1238 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 06:38:31 pm
Some highlights of the opinions of the Scottish Judges (and the full text) in this thread https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1172171677867769856?s=21 some pretty damning stuff.

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#1239 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 07:16:52 pm
Once, it would have been damning.

I don’t think it will be now.

Like the redacted section 15.

Like the Times calling out the Government for issuing faked reports.
(The Times ffs, remember when they were the most respected newspaper in the world?)

Strange days.

And the bridge!

Aaaarrrrggghhhh!

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#1240 Re: EU Referendum
September 12, 2019, 07:40:42 pm
Even the Civil service.

I don’t believe the FDA would have gone this far, unless very senior Civil servants are incredibly worried:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/11/civil-service-union-tells-pm-dont-make-our-members-break-law

Oh, and I think Bercow is right about needing a written constitution.

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#1241 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 12:50:00 pm

Oh, and I think Bercow is right about needing a written constitution.

Sadly it appears so. We have a perfectly good system which is complex and old but worked well. Unfortunately it relies on some degree of honour and honesty in senior politicians and judges, Johnson, among others appears to have neither of these.

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#1242 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 01:16:01 pm
On BJ’s new wheeze - a bridge to NI from Scotland. When the idea was floated a while back this retired engineer wrote to the times

Quote
“On your front page Boris Johnson airily proposes building a bridge from Britain to Northern Ireland. As a retired offshore engineer, I know this is about as feasible as building a bridge to the moon.

“Many long bridges have been built, but none across such a wide, deep and stormy stretch of water. For a great part of the 22-mile route the water is more than 1,000ft deep. It would require about 30 support towers at least 1,400ft high to carry the road deck across the deepest part and above the shipping channel. In total the bridge would require 54 towers, of heights never achieved anywhere in the world.

“In addition, the trickiest section, Beaufort Dyke, was used for many years from 1946 to dump obsolete munitions. The Ministry of Defence estimates the total dumped at more than 1.5m tons. There are no maps of their locations.

“No sane contractor or responsible government would consider building such a bridge, and because of the weather conditions it would probably have to be closed for considerable periods if it did. The proposal is just another thoughtless soundbite. This is typical of Johnson. He simply does not have the seriousness to lead the country.”

This is straight out of the Trump playbook.


Maybe a causeway would work.

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#1243 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 01:21:09 pm
It would have to be pretty...........    large?

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#1244 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 01:23:43 pm
Gigantic.

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#1245 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 01:25:22 pm

Maybe a causeway would work.

A Gigantic idea!


I propose we use BJ’s ego to bridge the impossible bits (it’s big enough), Trumps brain for foundations (it’s dense enough) and Farage’s personality as weather protection (that shit can repel anything).

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#1246 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 01:26:01 pm
SNAP!


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#1247 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 01:40:49 pm
I started reading Dicey with his Wikipedia page.
Anyone recommend a biography or more reputable historical source?
Because first impressions are of an “Individual Liberalist”, who was only such if the individual was White, male and not Irish...

Aka a bit of a Twunt.

I will read further, but...



In 1860s Britain. Just 30 years after parliament had to pass an act to outlaw slaves being used in British colonies. It's hardly enlightened times compared to today. Maybe some historical perspective required as 95% of people would probably qualify as twunts to you on today's metric.

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#1248 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 01:46:17 pm
It was such a ridiculous statement that I'd assumed that it was another of Matt's hilarious jokes  :shrug:

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#1249 Re: EU Referendum
September 13, 2019, 02:40:29 pm
I started reading Dicey with his Wikipedia page.
Anyone recommend a biography or more reputable historical source?

Probably a hero to BJ, come to think of it.

A bit of hero to JRM. Dicey is one of the twelve people profiled in his recent book The Victorians - however, definitely not a reputable historical source. There are a number of deliciously vicious reviews that are well worth seeking out (as is also true for Boris' recent pathetic attempt at a biography of Churchill).

 

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