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EU Referendum (Read 50013 times)

Oldmanmatt

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#1025 Re: EU Referendum
May 28, 2019, 08:10:29 pm
Itís all about values, innit.

Or, lack there of...

mrjonathanr

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#1026 Re: EU Referendum
May 28, 2019, 09:16:01 pm
Antisemites good, Blairites bad.

Strikes me all manner of unsavoury bigots could have been dealt with as briskly as Campbell had the inclination so moved them.

But it didnít. Someone is easily threatened by perceived disloyalty though - flounce out from a meeting that includes Chuka, remove one of the key players from the Blair-led years of success.

TobyD

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#1027 Re: EU Referendum
May 28, 2019, 11:11:39 pm
Interesting that if you are  a Holocaust denier the Labour Party will mutter about Ďeducationí and prevaricate for years but if youíre a Blairite who votes for an unequivocally remain party you can be expelled in a single weekend:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/labour-expels-alastair-campbell-from-party

Itís all about values, innit.

Indeed it is.  The values of Milne, Murray, Abbott etc al are that none must say a word against the glorious leader for he is incapable of being wrong. Corbyns values are that he likes manhole covers and his allotment . The expulsion of Alistair Campbell is a symptom of an insecure paranoid party  trying to freeload it's way into government without really having a position on by far and away the most important issue in British politics at the moment. 

TobyD

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#1028 Re: EU Referendum
May 29, 2019, 07:43:33 am
Interesting article by Daniel Finkelstein in the Times  today,  saying more or less that we're heading for another referendum of some sort whatever happens. 

DAVETHOMAS90

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#1029 Re: EU Referendum
May 29, 2019, 02:31:15 pm
It's all about the timing..

Big Red Bus-ted 😉:



.. well not quite yet. If this one has any prospect of sticking, then surely it will bring a tidal wave of similar action.

Oldmanmatt

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#1030 Re: EU Referendum
June 01, 2019, 11:27:28 am
Some general thoughts.

Farage is not a fascist or a nazi. He is many unpleasant things but not them. I think it's an important distinction to make. Those terms are becoming devalued by being applied to anybody to the right of the Conservatives. As we all know, fascists and the nazis were so much worse than that.

To people saying Farage hasn't reached his opinions through reason or logic. Well, he has. Again, he just holds different values to you and me. The point is is that he has chosen to argue the case using the most powerful tools at his disposal - people's emotions, gut feelings, and fears. Like it or not, would you expect anything else?

Appealing to a sense of reason among people at this stage is nonsensical. It's an identity issue and people likely made up their minds about it years ago. How many people on this thread can honestly say that, when they heard there was going to be a referendum, they stopped and thought about it and came to the best decision on the balance of evidence? I instinctively knew that I was for Remain and then was smugly pleased when the evidence fell in my favour. It's exactly the same for Leavers, but they choose to look at different sets of evidence (i.e greater sovereignty, better accountability of government, greater immigration control etc etc).

Apologies for going back to this, but I think itís important.
Not trying to attack you Will, your point is valid, but...

One of my German friends shared this. They have very definite attitudes to this question, over there:


Oldmanmatt

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#1033 Re: EU Referendum
June 07, 2019, 07:09:03 pm
That newstatesman survey accurately reflects my views. I'm most in favour of May's deal (or something similar); would prefer no deal over 'soft brexit' (i.e. customs union); I'd also prefer remain over 'soft brexit'. If we never leave I won't lose any sleep. If we end up out of the EU but in the customs union I'd be majorly pissed off.

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#1034 Re: EU Referendum
June 07, 2019, 08:04:21 pm
The evident success of Project Fear is proof positive that money speaks loudly. There is still much water to flow under the Brexit bridge. Time will tell.

Oldmanmatt

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#1035 Re: EU Referendum
June 07, 2019, 09:01:43 pm
The evident success of Project Fear is proof positive that money speaks loudly. There is still much water to flow under the Brexit bridge. Time will tell.

Dan Cheetham, is that you? Is this another UFCK thing!

TobyD

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#1036 Re: EU Referendum
June 08, 2019, 09:39:49 am
The evident success of Project Fear is proof positive that money speaks loudly. There is still much water to flow under the Brexit bridge. Time will tell.
Dan Cheetham, is that you? Is this another UFCK thing!

No, I think its Donald Trump.  It makes no sense whatsoever,  and contains mostly words of one syllable. 

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Stu Littlefair

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#1038 Re: EU Referendum
June 08, 2019, 10:16:19 am
That newstatesman survey accurately reflects my views. I'm most in favour of May's deal (or something similar); would prefer no deal over 'soft brexit' (i.e. customs union); I'd also prefer remain over 'soft brexit'. If we never leave I won't lose any sleep. If we end up out of the EU but in the customs union I'd be majorly pissed off.

Then I’m not sure you’ve fully realised the implications of May’s deal.

The Irish border is the key. May’s deal commits to keeping that open. I think almost everyone agrees there is no magical technical solution and finding one would take many years. To keep the border open therefore *requires* a customs union and a single market arrangement between NI and the EU.

In other words, the backstop is more of a “minimum degree of alignment” than an insurance policy.

So May’s deal implies either the UK stays in something like the CU and SM, or a regulatory split between the NI and the mainland. The latter is politically impossible for the conservative and unionist party.

In fact, if you want to stay out of the CU and SM, then I think you can either delay leaving until a technical solution is found, or throw the Good Friday Agreement under the bus.

I reckon I agree with your position that leaving the EU to remain in the CU and SM is a really stupid idea. The trouble is that the Irish border is the thorn in the side of those who wish to leave these institutions.

TobyD

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#1039 Re: EU Referendum
June 08, 2019, 10:23:06 am
That newstatesman survey accurately reflects my views. I'm most in favour of May's deal (or something similar); would prefer no deal over 'soft brexit' (i.e. customs union); I'd also prefer remain over 'soft brexit'. If we never leave I won't lose any sleep. If we end up out of the EU but in the customs union I'd be majorly pissed off.

Then Iím not sure youíve fully realised the implications of Mayís deal.

The Irish border is the key. Mayís deal commits to keeping that open. I think almost everyone agrees there is no magical technical solution and finding one would take many years. To keep the border open therefore *requires* a customs union and a single market arrangement between NI and the EU.

In other words, the backstop is more of a ďminimum degree of alignmentĒ than an insurance policy.

So Mayís deal implies either the UK stays in something like the CU and SM, or a regulatory split between the NI and the mainland. The latter is politically impossible for the conservative and unionist party.

In fact, if you want to stay out of the CU and SM you either accept the above, or throw the Good Friday Agreement under the bus.

I reckon I agree with your position that leaving the EU to remain in the CU and SM is a really stupid idea. The trouble is that the Irish border is the thorn in the side of those who wish to leave these institutions.

I agree Stu. Except that I'd qualify this by saying the trouble is that those who are adamant that we must leave the EU haven't aligned themselves with the inescapable fact that it's either a stupid economically harmful gesture with little or no benefits,  or that it will weaken or possibly break up the UK.  Its somewhat ironic that what has become a Conservative obsession is about the least conservative thing a government could do. 

petejh

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#1040 Re: EU Referendum
June 08, 2019, 11:27:16 am
That newstatesman survey accurately reflects my views. I'm most in favour of May's deal (or something similar); would prefer no deal over 'soft brexit' (i.e. customs union); I'd also prefer remain over 'soft brexit'. If we never leave I won't lose any sleep. If we end up out of the EU but in the customs union I'd be majorly pissed off.

Then Iím not sure youíve fully realised the implications of Mayís deal.

The Irish border is the key. Mayís deal commits to keeping that open. I think almost everyone agrees there is no magical technical solution and finding one would take many years. To keep the border open therefore *requires* a customs union and a single market arrangement between NI and the EU.

In other words, the backstop is more of a ďminimum degree of alignmentĒ than an insurance policy.

So Mayís deal implies either the UK stays in something like the CU and SM, or a regulatory split between the NI and the mainland. The latter is politically impossible for the conservative and unionist party.

In fact, if you want to stay out of the CU and SM, then I think you can either delay leaving until a technical solution is found, or throw the Good Friday Agreement under the bus.

I reckon I agree with your position that leaving the EU to remain in the CU and SM is a really stupid idea. The trouble is that the Irish border is the thorn in the side of those who wish to leave these institutions.


I broadly agree with all of that and you're wrong I do recognise the implications of May's deal. If a solution to an open Irish border takes many years then it takes many years. I don't think anyone sensible who voted leave believes the border issue won't take time, effort and ingenuity. I think it's worth it, you don't. Happy to differ. I did btw patrol that border for 10 years in my late teens and twenties, twice being attacked for being there. I have more than an inkling of what's involved.


Stu Littlefair

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#1041 Re: EU Referendum
June 08, 2019, 11:39:39 am
Sorry Pete,

I didnít mean to imply you donít understand the border issues. I was just surprised to see you describe a CU as your worst option but Mayís deal as your preferred one. Given the border issues I see Mayís deal as inevitably leading to a CU/SM relationship in the future.


Oldmanmatt

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#1042 Re: EU Referendum
June 08, 2019, 11:59:27 am
Sorry Pete,

I didnít mean to imply you donít understand the border issues. I was just surprised to see you describe a CU as your worst option but Mayís deal as your preferred one. Given the border issues I see Mayís deal as inevitably leading to a CU/SM relationship in the future.

It is the only solution, hence every (very senior and expert) Civil servant  tasked with finding a solution (or the future possibility of one) has resigned.

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#1043 Re: EU Referendum
June 08, 2019, 12:50:19 pm
Sorry Pete,

I didnít mean to imply you donít understand the border issues. I was just surprised to see you describe a CU as your worst option but Mayís deal as your preferred one. Given the border issues I see Mayís deal as inevitably leading to a CU/SM relationship in the future.

I'm hopeful that a CU/SM would be transitory. Others believe the CU/SM would be permanent. If it turned out to be permanent then I don't believe that would be a situation the population or government would accept - through general elections either we'd end up back in the EU as full members, or an agreement to the border would eventually be worked out through necessity. Until a withdrawal agreement is voted through and the next steps begin it's all speculation.
Also, while I'm not in favour of a permanent CU I do think the possibility exists for a bit more flexibility to be had within a CU than is 'advertised'. We'll see. 

TobyD

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#1044 Re: EU Referendum
June 14, 2019, 11:20:13 pm
An interesting perspective: Brexit Britain is wallowing in dangerous talk of national humiliation

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/14/brexit-britain-national-humiliation-uk-eu?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard