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EU Referendum (Read 21534 times)

Oldmanmatt

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#500 Re: EU Referendum
February 13, 2019, 02:51:50 pm
I read a book a few years back, that challenged the notion of British ingenuity being a “special case”.

The book re-referenced the notion if the invention of the Steam Locamotive (for one, mechanical looms for another), which is in this country, almost always thought of as being a British thing, as happening, with some a somewhat simultaneous nature, in several nations at that time. Rebranding it “Steam engine time”.
The author went on to posit various reasons that such things became “bigger” in Britain, than elsewhere, mostly our political system and lack of absolute monarchy, ircc.
Can’t remember title or author (at work), but do recall it was a well reviewed book.

teestub

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#501 Re: EU Referendum
February 13, 2019, 03:02:47 pm
minimises damage to the environment/offsets any damage it does...

As we are completely off topic I don’t mind dragging it in a different direction: I think that the consumerism underpinning our current economy and environmental protection are largely incompatible.

andy popp

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#502 Re: EU Referendum
February 13, 2019, 03:29:52 pm
I read a book a few years back, that challenged the notion of British ingenuity being a “special case”.

I don't really think this is off topic. A myth about how British genius/ingenuity made the country the "workshop of the world" has sustained a belief among some leave supporters that Britain will once more be able to pluckily "go it alone" after it leaves the EU.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 03:51:19 pm by andy popp »

teestub

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#503 Re: EU Referendum
February 13, 2019, 03:49:47 pm
Sorry Andy, just read your longer post re the narratives around British economic history, and it is fascinating, not quite side of a bus stuff though! Would be interesting if remain could have distilled some of this in a positive way pre referendum.

Will Hunt

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#504 Re: EU Referendum
February 13, 2019, 03:54:24 pm
Sorry Andy, just read your longer post re the narratives around British economic history, and it is fascinating, not quite side of a bus stuff though! Would be interesting if remain could have distilled some of this in a positive way pre referendum.

Rejection of British exceptionalism is gloomy though. Spirit Of The Blitz™ and Don't Do Britain Down™ make it too easy to dismiss these arguments.

SA Chris

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#505 Re: EU Referendum
February 13, 2019, 04:07:21 pm
such as the Potteries - to pick an example almost at random

 :lol:  North Staffordshire has lots and lots of clay (and coal) but the clay is for the most part crap and all the china clay had to come from Cornwall. Indeed, Wedgwood made a very serious effort to find new sources of clay in the US, so resource endowments certainly don't offer a full explanation. Entrepreneurship, however we definite it, is an clearly an important factor and in that respect and others Wedgwood is a bit of a hero to me. Slavery, on the other hand, whilst generating much scholarship, has actually been largely written out of business and economic history until relatively recently. The (emerging) consensus is that it was a significant factor in industrialization on both sides of the Atlantic.

Actually, I think British business/economic history, even as far back as the C18th, really does matter to Brexit. In my view, particular readings or constructions of British history have played a prominent role in some of the arguments made by Brexiteers and leave voters. Some of that is to do with readings of Imperial history or the history of our relationship with Europe (which still pivots far too heavily on WWII) but some of it is to do with economic history, particularly Britain's loss of its status as a manufacturing nation, when that loss occurred, and the possibilities for its recovery. Most people would date this loss to relatively recent history but Britain was already in effect a service economy by the late C19th, partly because of the huge success of financial services (helped my empire, formal and informal) and partly because many manufacturing industries, including ceramics and cotton, were starting to suffer declining competitiveness. At the same time, the popular reading of British economic history is also wrong in that its too gloomy - Britain remains an important and successful manufacturing nation.

I though there was a lengthy thread about economics and resources a few years back, but can;t find it now. May have been started by sloper.

Oldmanmatt

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#506 Re: EU Referendum
February 13, 2019, 04:38:49 pm
Please remember, the government have said, this is unrelated to Brexit:
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/defence/190212-Chairman-Williamson-MP-17-19.pdf

Frankly, I think that’s a crock of brown stuff.

I know it’s speculation and Pete will knock it down as such, but I’m not a believer in coincidence in this case. I also think GE are anticipating a much reduced defence budget, post Brexit, and will reposition accordingly for the international market.

Edit:

By way of (somewhat circumstantial) evidence, I would ask:

Why relocate, if the facility you propose to relocate to, does not have the capability to produce your product. Why abandon the original and all the staff, knowledge base etc etc.

Also, heard of this via the Knowledge Transfer (unofficial rumour network), Brussels division.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 04:44:19 pm by Oldmanmatt »

Oldmanmatt

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#507 Re: EU Referendum
February 13, 2019, 08:31:22 pm
Thought I’d expand a little on that, as I suspect to story has slipped under the radar.
Here’s the local paper take on the move:

https://rugbyobserver.co.uk/news/end-of-an-era-as-ge-confirms-plan-to-close-rugby-site-9626/

After the Australian Type 26’s were announced for Australian ship yards, I think this was a foregone conclusion. (They were always unlikely to be built here, but many had hoped).

Because we will not have a trade deal in place with Australia, in time for the first propulsion units to be delivered. Or even the next batch, by my estimates of the build timings (educated guess) and the commonly promulgated time scales for creating such trade agreements.

Teaboy

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#508 Re: EU Referendum
February 14, 2019, 12:32:57 am


I can't comment on those other malcontents, but on Dyson I'll respond. He's a Brexiter, so on that count I disagree with him. However moving his headquarters to Singapore hasn't really got anything to do with Brexit.


FFS, Dyson is not being name checked here and elsewhere because he has moved his HQ but because he was the poster boy for the manufacturing case for Brexit. He apparently had skin in the game and allowed people to believe that, as a manufacturer, Brexit would benefit his business but that has proven not to be the case. He wasn't someone who's case was based on how Brexit would benefit his business but another disinterested commentator. That said his business has benefited from the EU Singapore trade deal, he never had a valid pro Brexit case but an anti EU one as it was too protectionist for him (i.e. he had to pay tariffs when exporting to EU)

SamT

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#509 Re: EU Referendum
February 14, 2019, 09:23:09 am
promulgated

Had to look it up. Nice word. 

Oldmanmatt

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#510 Re: EU Referendum
February 14, 2019, 10:22:04 am
promulgated

Had to look it up. Nice word.

OT

It’s odd isn’t it.

I’ve made an unsettling discovery, quite late in life. Entirely unconfirmed etc.

I thought I understood Autism. Then, with opening the Bunker, I began to meet and teach people who were genuinely autistic and discovered the sheer variety of what that might mean.

Then, we started to question my son’s odd quirks.
Then I met a young man, who had never been diagnosed, but knew he fit the bill, at least in the “high functioning” sort of way.

The I made friends with a Speech and Language therapist, who knew all three of us and spends her life dealing with autistic people of all ages.

So, I asked her what she thought of the Young man and my Son.

She said “absolutely”.

Then she said “like you”.

You see, the three of us share this whole “Well Spoken” , pedantic, walking thesaurus, mad general knowledge skills, thing. Along with an inability to recognise when we are pissing people off.

I’ve developed a habit, that I had not acknowledged; of imitating the person I was speaking to; in terms of mannerisms and even accents. My Partner, Polly, is the first person to actually point it out to me, in real time, and stop me.

Edit:
Of course, some people would term this, simply, “being an Engineer”; which is pretty much the same thing.
 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:27:46 am by Oldmanmatt »

TobyD

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#511 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 08:50:03 am
Well, yesterday evenings vote looks like bad news for anyone interested in living in a country with functioning infrastructure and economy. The swivel eyed Eurosceptics move closer to the no deal exit they've been pushing for all along, hoping that hapless May will take all the flack and they can populate the cabinet with dimwits even more incompetent than the current crop, if that's indeed possible.

tomtom

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#512 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 09:08:07 am
Well, yesterday evenings vote looks like bad news for anyone interested in living in a country with functioning infrastructure and economy. The swivel eyed Eurosceptics move closer to the no deal exit they've been pushing for all along, hoping that hapless May will take all the flack and they can populate the cabinet with dimwits even more incompetent than the current crop, if that's indeed possible.

Though quite a lot of commentary saying how this shows the ERG for who they are - and strengthens the hand / unity of the soft brexit/remainer contingent.

It’s quite remarkable (though i wish I wasn’t living the consequences) that we really have no idea what the position will be in 1 year....

tc

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#513 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 09:13:09 am
hoping that hapless May will take all the flack and they can populate the cabinet with dimwits even more incompetent than the current crop, if that's indeed possible.

Downing Street blamed Corbyn for the defeat, saying he had "yet again put partisan considerations ahead of the national interest" by voting against the government's motion."

Erm...nah, fuck it.

tomtom

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#514 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 09:29:18 am
Poly Toynbee (I normally dislike her columns tbh) has an interesting commentary about how history will judge all this. How there may well be a long dissection of who did/didn’t say/do what...

Oldmanmatt

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#515 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 05:04:10 pm
Poly Toynbee (I normally dislike her columns tbh) has an interesting commentary about how history will judge all this. How there may well be a long dissection of who did/didn’t say/do what...

I know people often attribute things to their kids, but my daughter (13) shocked me recently.
She hadn’t taken up her dual nationality. She was English, with a Romanian mother. We confirmed her status officially etc.

Then, a couple of weeks ago, she turns around to me and tells me that when she turns 14, she’s allowed to apply for a Romanian passport and she intends to. She tells me she has been researching her rights regarding dual nationality and that she thinks it only prudent (yes, she used that phrase).

Now, I know I’m loud on here, but if you think I’ve had any sort of  discussion with my kids about it all, your on crack.

Turns out, she and her mates have opinions on this and strong ones.
Now she’s a Grammar girl , has decided she wants to study law, via the Army Intelligence Corps (no less and much to my chagrin) but I wouldn’t have imagined any sort of awareness of current affairs.

So yes, I think this is going to have repercussions for decades and I think the Tory party will be finished if this leads to a significant recession.

tomtom

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#516 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 06:29:07 pm

TobyD

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#517 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 11:08:34 pm
hoping that hapless May will take all the flack and they can populate the cabinet with dimwits even more incompetent than the current crop, if that's indeed possible.
Downing Street blamed Corbyn for the defeat, saying he had "yet again put partisan considerations ahead of the national interest" by voting against the government's motion."
Erm...nah, fuck it.
Not sure what you're trying to say here, but was this lost vote Corbyn's fault? No. It was more a combination of the stubbornness of May and the ERG, desperately trying to control each other. However Corbyn is 100% guilty of aiding and abetting what is looking increasingly likely to be a no deal Brexit. He is transparently hoping for a disastrous Brexit he can pin on the Tories to improve his chances in any prospective election after it. Make no mistake he is neither temperamentally nor intellectually qualified to be an effective PM. It's widely known in Westminster that he's currently struggling to cope with the pressure of the opposing factions in his own party. Neither May not Corbyn seem to be able to grasp that collaborative not oppositional politics is the way this is heading, as many other European countries have had for years.

Will Hunt

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#518 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 11:53:28 pm
Worth bearing in mind that No Deal = instant general election. DUP instantly tear up confidence and supply agreement and vote of no confidence passes by a good margin. It wouldn't be a bad position for the Dear Leader to be in.

Oldmanmatt

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#519 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 11:54:31 pm
But it’s all ok, because JRM says Britain’s Boer war concentration camps, were absolutely fine and dandy.

The bloke is an amazing piece of utter shit.

27000 deaths.

But, according to him, it’s fine because they died from neglect and not gas chambers...


Oldmanmatt

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#520 Re: EU Referendum
February 15, 2019, 11:57:02 pm
Worth bearing in mind that No Deal = instant general election. DUP instantly tear up confidence and supply agreement and vote of no confidence passes by a good margin. It wouldn't be a bad position for the Dear Leader to be in.

Hmmmmm...

Nah, this is a game of “Hot Potato”, where the potato is approaching the melting point of steel.

Losing is the only way to win. Let the other side take the rap.

Oldmanmatt

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#521 Re: EU Referendum
February 16, 2019, 12:44:24 pm
So...

Idiot tries to reassert some sort of imperial moral authority over the opposite side of the planet.
Other idiot discovered that threatening to kill citizens of another country, not conducive of good trading relationships.

What F’ing planet are these jokers on?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chancellor-china-trade-visit-gavin-williamson-aircraft-carrier-pacific-a8782211.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1550310195

TobyD

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#522 Re: EU Referendum
February 16, 2019, 11:46:47 pm
It's F'ing  ridiculous isn't it. Like the cabinet are holding an impromptu incompetence competition. Grayling... Ferries. Fox... 4 trade deals in 2 years, one of which is with the Faroe Islands. Williamson... Declaration of war on a nation so much more powerful than the UK that they just find it slightly irritating, threatening them with an aircraft carrier which is 2 years away from being ready. Twats.


tregiffian

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#524 Re: EU Referendum
February 17, 2019, 09:54:52 am
You will forgive my pointing out that if the above were the case they would both be honouring their manifesto pledges.