[Oldmanmatt]

The only sane counterarguments as far as I can see revolve around control over immigration which I can understand but not necessarily agree with,

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-may-isnt-telling-the-whole-story-on-immigration

[i.munro]

The only sane counterarguments as far as I can see revolve around control over immigration which I can understand but not necessarily agree with, control over fishing rights- ditto, and a notion of national sovereignty, which may be sane yet misguided in my opinion.

So immigration, if that's what leavers wanted, could have been & still could be much better controlled without leaving the EU.
The sovereignty argument seems to be simply a matter of whose rules we are going to accept - the EU's or the US's  & nobody is offering us a voice in the US.  So Fishing then ....

[TobyD]

In reply to the previous two posts... I wasn't saying I thought these credible reasons, just that I can understand how people might have thought voting leave would help these issues if they concerned them, not that they were based on credible evidence. More credible perhaps than millions more for the NHS but still probably misguided.

See Caroline Cadwalladers piece in the observer last Sunday for Farages constant and ongoing lies and deceit.

[TobyD]

A highly recommended read, one of the more entertaining political sketch writers on PMQs yesterday:

The time would have been better spent getting both leaders to face off in a bushtucker trial. Chomping their way through a wallaby’s scrotum would be the least that May and Corbyn could do in return for wrecking the country with their own incompetence. It would also be much better TV.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/28/theres-a-plan-for-a-brexit-debate-its-a-shame-its-the-only-plan

[highrepute]

A highly recommended read, one of the more entertaining political sketch writers on PMQs yesterday:

The time would have been better spent getting both leaders to face off in a bushtucker trial. Chomping their way through a wallaby’s scrotum would be the least that May and Corbyn could do in return for wrecking the country with their own incompetence. It would also be much better TV.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/28/theres-a-plan-for-a-brexit-debate-its-a-shame-its-the-only-plan

Always enjoy John Crace. Amazing how satire can make things seem so clear. Always makes me feel better readings his pieces.

Brexit seems to have disappeared up its own arse right now. Lots of headlines, leave and remain papers, saying how May's deal is bad for Britain but surely we were warned about this all along. Project fear anyone? Leave voters new this to be the case, like Pete says, it's the price worth paying to take back control.

I don't think anyone knows what's going to happen at the moment. There's about a dozen factions in parliament all wanting different things. Which one we end up with is anyone's guess. I feel like it's probably going to be May's deal because it's the only option that's had a couple of years of work put into it, everything else is back to square one. I hope I'm wrong...

[teestub]

I know we have heard enough from experts and we definitely don't trust the forecasts of Economists, but Spreadsheet Phil and Mark Carney don't seem to have much nice to say about the short and longish (15 yrs) term impacts of May's proposed deal. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/28/economic-forecasts-strike-blow-to-theresa-mays-brexit-deal

[mark20]

I feel like it's probably going to be May's deal because it's the only option that's had a couple of years of work put into it, everything else is back to square one. I hope I'm wrong...

[Oldmanmatt]

I feel like it's probably going to be May's deal because it's the only option that's had a couple of years of work put into it, everything else is back to square one. I hope I'm wrong...

The best we can hope for is a “Go back three spaces” and hope we don’t land on a snake.

I won’t yet dare, even dream, of landing on a ladder...

[i.munro]

Interesting piece in the Grauniad about how people stopped trusting politicians/journalists & how that got extended to others scientists/doctors/economists etc.  Seemed to suggest that those like Trump,Farage, Johnson aren't included because the lies they tell are so obvious that they're not considered "deceitful" Uh ???

[tomtom]

We’re all waiting for Trump to pull off a silicone face mask to reveal Chris Morris.

It would be his finest work.

[A Jooser]

Wonderful take on things from Andy Serkis...

[andy popp]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. In Marx's words history repeats itself "first as tragedy, then as farce." Not sure exactly where we are in that cycle, but in it we are.

[Oldmanmatt]

Before you retire, Andy, you’ll be teaching a course on “The Brexit disaster”, aka, “How pride came before...”


Seriously, I do hope you won’t be. I hope this all comes out in the wash, without a second referendum (because I really don’t see that reducing division or helping the country recover it’s trajectory).

[andy popp]

Seriously, I do hope you won’t be. I hope this all comes out in the wash, without a second referendum (because I really don’t see that reducing division or helping the country recover it’s trajectory).

I actually don't see where there is the scope for a positive outcome at this point. I hope I'm wrong.

[tomtom]

Seriously, I do hope you won’t be. I hope this all comes out in the wash, without a second referendum (because I really don’t see that reducing division or helping the country recover it’s trajectory).

I actually don't see where there is the scope for a positive outcome at this point. I hope I'm wrong.

Actually I think its positive news on balance - especially if we consider how it looked 6 months ago. I think at this stage all roads lead to a soft brexit or no brexit....

Mays deal has (at least) illustrated to the loons in her party that its not possible to square the irish border issue without either (a) a catastrophic cliff edge (which will not be allowed to happen guessing by the shift in media coverage of this) or (b) some sort of customs union (whether it be blatant or backdoor e.g. backstop stuff).

ergo - cliff edge or Norway (style) or no-brexit. and I think cliff edge is not going to happen. As the A50 court ruling today showed - our default position need not be to 'crash out' in 5 months time if there is no deal, but to 'slump back in' instead

Of course it leaves us with a largely divided country - 2-3 years of no growth/stagnation - which is shite. But not the total clusterfuck it could have been.....

[mrjonathanr]

Nice to see you’re an optimist TT, I hope that is borne out in the fullness of time.

Regarding the Norway option however, there’ll be opposition from the Norwegians, it may not be as attainable as some imagine.

[tomtom]

Nice to see you’re an optimist TT, I hope that is borne out in the fullness of time.

Regarding the Norway option however, there’ll be opposition from the Norwegians, it may not be as attainable as some imagine.

Yeah - we’d not be part of the EFT but I think early on in the negotiations a Norway style deal (as a starting point) was offered. Would still mean a customs union and free movement I think.

[andy popp]

I thought Norway-esque had been completely ruled out in recent days, not least by Norway. And the EU have made it very, very clear today that there will be no renegotiation. Everything I've read this afternoon suggests a np deal Brexit has become more likely.

[tomtom]

That was joining the EFT that was ruled out - not having a deal ‘like’ Norway’s. But tbh - i doubt that would happen as the difference between that and full member isn’t great - but without any decision making power.

Not sure if you’ll pick up on it via print media / Web Andy, but to me there has been a definite shift away from no deal... the hardcore leavers are not talking about it so much - and/or not being reported much. Either is quite a shift.

Also - no brexit is now being mentioned more and more. No deal won’t happen... I think the economic impacts of a no deal is finally hitting home and it won’t be.

[andy popp]

There's no doubt a lot I'm missing out on.

[Oldmanmatt]

There's no doubt a lot I'm missing out on.

Not so much missing, as mercifully avoiding.

It’s got this silly:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2018/dec/10/put-it-back-labour-mp-grabs-the-mace-during-parliament-video

[tomtom]

There's no doubt a lot I'm missing out on.

As Matt said...

Wall to wall here. I think the channels had all booked extra shows and live coverage of the vote tomorrow eve etc.. brexit specials etc... it is close to wall to wall coverage.

[A Jooser]

Ugh... the mother of all Parliaments eh?!  ...



Fair play though it was quite a comeback!

[Oldmanmatt]

So, the Maybot survives.

This really ought to kill BoJo’s future, and Lord Bloody Snooty, too; surely?

[danm]

Someone (may have been Hesletine) said today: there's not much point changing the singer if you keep playing the same song. This changes nothing - in fact, it makes the parliamentary arithmetic look even bleaker. May hasn't a hope in hell of getting her deal past the Commons, the EU will not renegotiate, and so we head towards a clifftop exit unless something crazy happens such as sense prevailing. On current form, that's us fucked then!