[tomtom]

Did people not vote in the first, binding, referendum or was it aliens and animals?

Yes, though it wasnt binding.

[tregiffian]

The leaflet we all got, supporting Remain at huge length and expense said. “The government will implement your decision “. Sounds fairly solid to me.

[teestub]

Yes, we all know how much value to put behind promises on bits of paper from political parties.

[tomtom]

Yes, we all know how much value to put behind promises on bits of paper from political parties.

Possibly marginally more than those than facebook ads sponsored by Aaron Banks..

[Oldmanmatt]

Did people not vote in the first, binding, referendum or was it aliens and animals?

You really don’t know what you’re talking about do you?

I assume you’re talking about the 1973 one?

No?

Because the 2016 re-run proves it’s not a one off thing.

Sorry you are so scared your choice might be reversed, but this isn’t going away. I know I will keep banging on until things change.

There will be plenty. Sometimes more than not, sometimes less, but you just don’t get how divided the country is, do you?

This isn’t a political debate, you and your ilk are depriving me and others of rights that we currently possess and you are wrong to do so. The referendum was wrong. There are alot of people very angry about it. I’m one. Your attitude of “you lost get over it” makes you an idiot.
In the end, it’s all you have.

Every single argument in favour of Brexit has been debunked, except the immigration argument.
This is why it is May’s headline defence of the draft bill.
She and everyone else recognise the bill delivers none of the promises of the referendum, except border control. She and the mainstream government are running with that because they know that is the core of the argument.
I just no longer belive any Brexiter thatclaims their position is based on any foundation itherthan the immigration issue. Every single conversation, eventually, comes down to immigration.
I tried “seeing it from a different perspective” and all the normal, reasonable stuff. I’ve discussed it at lenth with people I used to respect. Used to. I always end discovering that they are at heart quite unpleasant andnarrow minded.
I spent too long living amongst other cultures and with other nationalities to not recognise what these people are.

Racist, niby, scared.

Debunk any law making, financial or trade argument a Brexiter throws at you and they will say “well, at least we get control of our borders!”; call that racist or point out it’s not Euro immigration they’re actually thinking of and they retreat to “you lost we won, get over it”.

It’s our democratic right to dispute the referendum result and try to sway opinion in the other direction.

So shove it.

[Will Hunt]

Did people not vote in the first, binding, referendum or was it aliens and animals?

You really don’t know what you’re talking about do you?

I assume you’re talking about the 1973 one?

No?

Because the 2016 re-run proves it’s not a one off thing.

Sorry you are so scared your choice might be reversed, but this isn’t going away. I know I will keep banging on until things change.

There will be plenty. Sometimes more than not, sometimes less, but you just don’t get how divided the country is, do you?

This isn’t a political debate, you and your ilk are depriving me and others of rights that we currently possess and you are wrong to do so. The referendum was wrong. There are alot of people very angry about it. I’m one. Your attitude of “you lost get over it” makes you an idiot.
In the end, it’s all you have.

Every single argument in favour of Brexit has been debunked, except the immigration argument.
This is why it is May’s headline defence of the draft bill.
She and everyone else recognise the bill delivers none of the promises of the referendum, except border control. She and the mainstream government are running with that because they know that is the core of the argument.
I just no longer belive any Brexiter thatclaims their position is based on any foundation itherthan the immigration issue. Every single conversation, eventually, comes down to immigration.
I tried “seeing it from a different perspective” and all the normal, reasonable stuff. I’ve discussed it at lenth with people I used to respect. Used to. I always end discovering that they are at heart quite unpleasant andnarrow minded.
I spent too long living amongst other cultures and with other nationalities to not recognise what these people are.

Racist, niby, scared.

Debunk any law making, financial or trade argument a Brexiter throws at you and they will say “well, at least we get control of our borders!”; call that racist or point out it’s not Euro immigration they’re actually thinking of and they retreat to “you lost we won, get over it”.

It’s our democratic right to dispute the referendum result and try to sway opinion in the other direction.

So shove it.

Pop those toys back in the pram, Matt. I think what he's getting at is that the new referendum has been branded as the "People's Vote", perhaps implying that those who voted in the 2016 were not The People (TM).

It's worth noting that the rest of your post is a perfect example of why I think a new referendum (whilst something I cautiously and tentatively support) is probably a bad idea. The question of Leave and Remain, for many people, has now become a matter of identity as opposed to a matter of reason. Tregiffian has presumably (I can't really remember) run his colours up the mast as a Leave supporter and this is all you've needed to write a long and insulting post (which I will punter you for once I've clicked "post" on this one) to brand him, by association, as all those things which you believe to be universal in the Leave population. Posts like yours will not change anyone's mind, it will only drive them deeper into their tribe by making them feel alienated from what the other side is thinking.

Multiply, if you will, by 46.8 million people (the number who were on the electoral register as of June 2017). Bear in mind that in calling for a "People's Vote" (the name is already antagonistic to anybody who feels that the vote is an attempt to sweep the first referendum under the carpet - I suspect this would extend to several million British human beings), you have absolutely no idea what the options will be. Current thinking is that it'll be a two option or a three option job. May's Deal or Stay In The EU; possibly with a No Deal Exit option. We also don't know whether this will work on an alternative vote basis.

There's loads of ways that this vote could go depending on what the options are and how people are allowed to vote. At this stage in the game I would have thought that a Remainer's principle concern would be avoiding a No Deal Brexit at all costs. The polling quoted on the Today programme this morning suggested that the population was split into thirds, with a third each wanting the three options described above. So that implies that it could go either way at the moment. It also means (if the polling is representative) that at present there is a significant proportion of the original Remain population who have changed their mind. Perhaps they felt ambivalent to the whole thing in 2016 and voted for the low-risk status quo option, but now the wheels are in motion they feel some sort of duty to honour the result of the first referendum. I wouldn't underestimate this line of thinking, no matter how much you may disagree with it or find it illogical.

Consider also that during a new referendum campaign, the No Dealers (if that is given as an option, which I think is likely) would be able to make lots and lots of arguments to the electorate that would appeal to people's guts and emotions. Britain standing firm; no potentially interminable kicking-the-can-down-the-road temporary customs arrangement; NO £39b DIVORCE BILL (this one is massive); honouring the will of the people etc etc etc. Any polite pointing out of an economic cliff will be decried as Operation Fear and undemocratic. Disagree all you want, but the evidence is clear from home and abroad that an emotional argument is worth 1000 economists from the IFS. Be careful what you wish for.

My opinion today (it might change tomorrow) is that given the choice between a new 3-option referendum or take the deal now, I'd take the deal as it mitigates the risk of an (IMO) untenable No Deal exit.

[tomtom]

If it were three way it would be AVC.

[Will Hunt]

If it were three way it would be AVC.

Out of interest, how do you know? It might seem to be the most sensible option, but that doesn't mean that parliament would make it so. I'd expect the usual arguments about it being too complicated for the hopelessly dull electorate to re-surface.

[joel182]

Tregiffian has presumably (I can't really remember) run his colours up the mast as a Leave supporter and this is all you've needed to write a long and insulting post (which I will punter you for once I've clicked "post" on this one) to brand him, by association, as all those things which you believe to be universal in the Leave population.

Tregiffian has made posts gloating that outside the EU we can spectate on future political issues in Europe and only have to worry about our climbing trips, alleged we are going to have loads more money to spend on nurses and research projects, and dismissed a second referendum as not being 'real'. I am not a fan of Matt's ranty posts, and wish he would tone them down, but I don't think it's fair to say that his rant was soley because Tregiffian is is a leave supporter.

[Oldmanmatt]

Sorry Will, you’re wrong.
Too polite, too wishy-washy, too accommodating.

The Right, in particular, walk all over people like you.

Punter away. You will rue this crap as much as everyone else will.

If the identity you chose is predicated on racist ideology, you deserve a strong clap back, not understanding or sympathy. You just pander to them.

Insulting? Nah.

Calling out the bullshit and calling liars, liars, is not insulting and if you find my calling people who support liars and racists, idiots, you need to toughen up a bit. Because they will call you far worse.

As I said, I’ve listened to both sides. Looked for the good everywhere. Leave is an abomination, people who support it now, after all that has already happened and given all that is likely to come to pass, are either idiots, malicious or deluded.

Pete’s unicorns might not be pink, fluffy, fart rainbows and piss gold dust (like the leave leadership sold 52 % of the country), but grey and unremarkable they might be; they’re still fantasy.
Even Pete, by far the best Leave representative I’ve debated (and I wish he was on to something) cannot, by his on admission, give concrete reasoning for his position, only that it “feels” right and intangible wishes for independence and national identity.

As for Tregriffan? He doesn’t even try to justify his position. His stance has been insulting from the get go. I just built up to it.

Two and a half years.

Listening, reading, talking

Nah. Brexit is bollocks. It will make us smaller, by almost every metric.

And, Will, the point of my “rants” are exactly because of the division this has caused in the country. That division will grow. You can’t accommodate it, you can’t “take the moral high ground”; those things are defeat by another name.

Labour have abandoned the working people, Corbyn is an ideologue, no more interested in the plight of the individual than Reece-Mogg, the Liberal party are incompetent and led by a doddering muppet and the “people” are being buffeted around by populist propaganda for the gain of a few quite horrible individuals.

The Tories, my erstwhile party of choice, are what they always were (I wish I seen it sooner), selfish. They exist to enrich themselves, individually and that gives them common cause, until it doesn’t, their true colours shine through, they dissolve into factions and  collapse. They are adept at using peoples fear of “the other”, “the poor” and “the lazy”, though, and it keeps them in power.

The tolerant, by definition, always want to tolerate, avoid offence and find common ground. The determined laugh at that, left and right. The “middle” and the “reasonable” are currently the shuttlecock in this game (actually, it’s more a game of Squash right now, not as genteel as Badminton implies).

[gme]

My two penneth worth in brief.

Was a stanch remainer and still am, but accept others were not and accept the result.

Dont want another referendum and dont think anything would change if we had one.

Know loads of leavers as i have wide ranging social groups away from climbing. Non of them i have spoken to would change there vote and non of them are racists. Dont agree with oldmanmatts vision of them at all.

Think that Mays proposal is a pretty good effort at getting a deal that pleases a large section of society if you accept we have to leave. Shes gone up in my estimations and i would vote for this option, it went down well with the CBI.

Am very disappointed in Labour who i think are a total waste of space and will struggle to ever get my vote again.

Think that a majority of people are sick of it now, which is a bit disappointing, but reality and the reason we should never ask the general public an important y/n question ever again as the devil is in the detail and non of them want the detail

[Will Hunt]

Sorry Will, you’re wrong.
Too polite, too wishy-washy, too accommodating.

The Right, in particular, walk all over people like you.

Punter away. You will rue this crap as much as everyone else will.

If the identity you chose is predicated on racist ideology, you deserve a strong clap back, not understanding or sympathy. You just pander to them.

Insulting? Nah.

Calling out the bullshit and calling liars, liars, is not insulting and if you find my calling people who support liars and racists, idiots, you need to toughen up a bit. Because they will call you far worse.

As I said, I’ve listened to both sides. Looked for the good everywhere. Leave is an abomination, people who support it now, after all that has already happened and given all that is likely to come to pass, are either idiots, malicious or deluded.

Pete’s unicorns might not be pink, fluffy, fart rainbows and piss gold dust (like the leave leadership sold 52 % of the country), but grey and unremarkable they might be; they’re still fantasy.
Even Pete, by far the best Leave representative I’ve debated (and I wish he was on to something) cannot, by his on admission, give concrete reasoning for his position, only that it “feels” right and intangible wishes for independence and national identity.

As for Tregriffan? He doesn’t even try to justify his position. His stance has been insulting from the get go. I just built up to it.

Two and a half years.

Listening, reading, talking

Nah. Brexit is bollocks. It will make us smaller, by almost every metric.

And, Will, the point of my “rants” are exactly because of the division this has caused in the country. That division will grow. You can’t accommodate it, you can’t “take the moral high ground”; those things are defeat by another name.

Labour have abandoned the working people, Corbyn is an ideologue, no more interested in the plight of the individual than Reece-Mogg, the Liberal party are incompetent and led by a doddering muppet and the “people” are being buffeted around by populist propaganda for the gain of a few quite horrible individuals.

The Tories, my erstwhile party of choice, are what they always were (I wish I seen it sooner), selfish. They exist to enrich themselves, individually and that gives them common cause, until it doesn’t, their true colours shine through, they dissolve into factions and  collapse. They are adept at using peoples fear of “the other”, “the poor” and “the lazy”, though, and it keeps them in power.

The tolerant, by definition, always want to tolerate, avoid offence and find common ground. The determined laugh at that, left and right. The “middle” and the “reasonable” are currently the shuttlecock in this game (actually, it’s more a game of Squash right now, not as genteel as Badminton implies).

Screaming "RACIST!" in the faces of those who raised modest concerns about immigration is exactly the sort of thing that precipitated this utter clusterfuck.

You say the Right will walk all over me. I've never tolerated racism and have had loud and acrimonious shouting matches with my family over it. Your rhetoric and debate style plays into the hands of those you would seek to oppose. Divide and Rule has been the linchpin of the Leave campaign from the start. Do you actually think that anybody who voted Leave who reads your posts will consider changing their mind? You might want to confine your activism to protests and demos and leave the one-on-one debate to those who might be more persuasive.

I love nothing better than slagging people off and can do insulting if you want, you total shit-for-brains cunt, but I don't think you deserve it and I don't think it'll help me change your stance.

My two penneth worth in brief.

Was a stanch remainer and still am, but accept others were not and accept the result.

Dont want another referendum and dont think anything would change if we had one.

Know loads of leavers as i have wide ranging social groups away from climbing. Non of them i have spoken to would change there vote and non of them are racists. Dont agree with oldmanmatts vision of them at all.

Think that Mays proposal is a pretty good effort at getting a deal that pleases a large section of society if you accept we have to leave. Shes gone up in my estimations and i would vote for this option, it went down well with the CBI.

Am very disappointed in Labour who i think are a total waste of space and will struggle to ever get my vote again.

Think that a majority of people are sick of it now, which is a bit disappointing, but reality and the reason we should never ask the general public an important y/n question ever again as the devil is in the detail and non of them want the detail

I agree with a lot of this, but there's a difference between accepting the original result and thinking that means that we have to go through with it. The question was not "shall we exit at any cost whatsoever?".

[Oldmanmatt]

Will, you misunderstand my motivation. Debate, persuasion and false equivalency; are what lead us into this mess.
 What is happening, is not a “mild expression of concern about immigration”; it’s a total overreaction, with a multitude of babies being thrown out with the bath water.

It is a universally recognised axiom, that you can tell a person (lets not be sexist here) by the company they keep.
Rabidly, openly, racist and xenophobic organisations form a huge chunk of the persistent Leave camp and they threaten to swamp every aspect of our lives.

To be honest, for me and many others (that I know) this stopped being simply about Brexit some time ago. It’s just another symptom.

The world has lurched to the right.

The utter ridiculousness, that I, as a relatively authoritarian, slightly militaristic, only just able to grin-and-bear Islam (or any religion or new age spiritualism), with a strong capitalist bent; is considered a “lefty” by the current standard, dhould be bloody frightening to anyone more tolerant than I am!

Dancing around the issue, playing down the insidious roll of xenophobia in all of our decision making is not helping any more.

This is a xenophobic act. Most of the world is quite happy to call it that. Xenophobia is the dancing partner of Racism.

If I’m going to entertain any mythology, at least analogously, then let it be the true four horsemen of apocalypse, Xenophobia, Racism, Greed and Self interest.

[petejh]

Matt you're in danger of taking the vacant position of most self-righteous person on UKB. Last occupied by Sloper. The only reasonable response to your ranting is to roll the eyes.

Ignoring most of your turbo-rants, but on the racism point:

I don't recognise your characterisation of all leave voters being racist. I'm well aware that racists voted for leave. How else were they ever going to vote in a 2-option referendum?

Yours is a simple logical fallacy: All racists voted leave. Therefore all leave voters are racist. No.


There's certainly a lot of clumsy and inarticulate language around immigration. Is that really any surprise? There's a debate about whether someone is being racist or how much boils down to them being unable to concisely articulate sincerely-held beliefs and concerns around immigration in a language that's acceptable to you, me, or to commonly accepted norms among an educated middle-class.
News Alert - working class, relatively less educated members of the population have difficulty using nuanced sensitive language around a sensitive topic that they feel threatened by... Better not ask about football then, some of them actually want to kill rival fans just for being from a neighbouring city, not country!
Immigration's a difficult enough topic to sensitively discuss for an educated professional without offending someone! Stick a Sky TV camera and microphone in the face of Frank the factory-worker and ask him to explain in 30 seconds his views on the socio-economic impact of immigration on the fabric of UK life and what do you expect other than another soundbite for inherently angry over-reactive people to despair over and be angry about.

I don't believe that everyone who's guilty of being inarticulate or who sounds offensive while expressing confusing, passionately-held concerns actually wants to impose a racist regime on others, or that they consider other races inferior to themselves. I know those people exist in the UK, like everywhere else. Tribalism is normal in humans - it needs controlling or it can get ugly. It's an element of the right, of course it is, like it is of the extreme left. But it's cynical politicians that stoke it for their own ends and I just don't see an appetite in the UK for the sort of fascist, racist apocalypse that you keep ranting about.

[webbo]

If you have the misfortune to do prevent training. You might find the radicalisation of young white anglosaxons by the far right is a bit too common to be complacent about.

[Oldmanmatt]

I “Hah!” Derisively at your eye roll...

Most of what you wrote mearly reinforces all the reasons I stated for the whole shit show being a mistake from the beginning. Albeit from the other direction...

I’d be incredibly surprised if I actually came across someone who was genuinely immune to feelings of Xenophobia or Racism. I’m not, nor have I claimed to be.
The problem, is when those thoughts go unrecognised as natural fears, like that of heights or spiders and (the next bit got deleted, weird) become the basis for government.
You said that such thoughts had no bearing on your position, I have no reason to dispute that, you haven’t shown any such tendency elsewhere around here that I’m aware of. I referenced something you said (more than once, iirc) on the other thread about an almost patriotic need for self determination; that you said you found hard to articulate (hence me finding it even more so).

Self righteous?
Hmmm.

Uh yeah! Isn’t everyone, when they argue for a position?

Joking aside, I think you were wrong/made the wrong choice, becuse you got the risk/benefit calculation you were forced to make, wrong. You have an inherent and justified distrust of “Economists” and modelling, based on past errors by those entities.

Over reactive?

When I want to be. Facist revolution? That’s not what I said, I said “lurch to the right” (is that even possible to question?). Please go back, though, and read about the way Facism crept into Italy/Germany post WW1 (I suspect you already have), there were many who said quite similar things to your line above...

The apocalypse reference was for colour, not prognostication.


Also, you saw the whole “Tommeh” thing play out, over the last ew weeks, right?

Edit:

Oh yeah, Will (I think, losing track), I’m entirely anti second referendum!
I just get annoyed that so many people, like Tregriffan, think it was some ultimate fixed point or some apex of British life that can never be challenged or repeated.

[abarro81]

Was a stanch remainer and still am, but accept others were not and accept the result.

... i would vote for this option,

So you want to stay but you'd now vote to leave? That makes no sense Gav, why on earth would you not vote to stay with May's deal as 2nd choice?
(Will - I've not heard anyone say a 3-way option would be 3-way straight without second choices, weighted scores etc.)

I would plump for another referendum, but that's because
1. I don't want to leave; and
2. I've yet to hear any good reason not to have one. Arguments about having more democracy being undemocratic seem non-nonsensical*. We're already hugely divided and I don't see it getting any worse by running a referendum on what's actually on offer.
Why wouldn't you want a 2nd one Gav? (and anyone else who wouldn't?)

* For those who like an analogy: we all get in the car and decide, on a vote, to go to Malham. Then en-route we realise its the Malham show this weekend and the whole palce will be rammed.. it might be fine but it might not. But we're not allowed to decide whether to change our minds and go to Kilnsey instead... wtf??

[A Jooser]

* For those who like an analogy: we all get in the car and decide, on a vote, to go to Malham. Then en-route we realise its the Malham show this weekend and the whole palce will be rammed.. it might be fine but it might not. But we're not allowed to decide whether to change our minds and go to Kilnsey instead... wtf??

Not sure this really works. The choice wouldn't be Malham or Kilnsey, it would be Malham or go back to where you were when you had the vote. Unless Kilnsey is the much-maligned EEA/FTA option; that would make sense. And of course where you got in the car would be 1973 EEC not EU, and by the time it came to taking a vote on it you were a little unsure about the bloke behind the wheel...
 

[tomtom]

We’re sleepwalking into Mays deal... It will become the default option and we’ll end up drifting into it after a couple of years.

I am (a) glad that it seems to have (probably) knocked hard brexit on the head (for now) but (b) really quite angry that Labour - no its not labour its Corbyn - are doing nothing about this. Just playing politics holding out for a GE.

RE: Barrows/Malham.

Its like a car of four people leaving Leeds to head to Almscliff. We always go to almscliff moans one of them - I’m bored of almscliff says passenger 2. For once the normally quiet passenger 3 pipes up one says - yeah me too. Passenger 2 says, well maybe we should try somewhere else - lets go to Earl. The driver doesn’t want to go - she’s quite happy with Almscliff  and passenger three umms and aahs, but then decides alright lets go somewhere different.

So they change direction to Earl - but the clouds look a bit grey that way. Passenger 1 checks the forecast on his phone “rain over Earl!! (SHOCK”, Passenger 2 checks a different weather app and says “mine says it’ll be fine”. A great argument erupts in the car -“there’s always something you can do in the rain” - “it’ll be terrible - it will all be wet” but they’re already part way there. Soon they are coming past Ilkley quarry - so the driver decides they’ll stop there as everyone can climb and its not raining. Though its still polished and full of people saying what are you doing..

[TobyD]

Re the 'racists' issue. I don't think all leavers are / were racist, I do think that the leave campaign precipitated the worst instincts of many, issues surrounding non EU and EU immigration were conflated by people like Farage specifically for electoral gain. This normalised a vein of racist discourse amongst far more of the population than would otherwise have thought it the most important thing in their communities.

[petejh]

* For those who like an analogy: we all get in the car and decide, on a vote, to go to Malham. Then en-route we realise its the Malham show this weekend and the whole palce will be rammed.. it might be fine but it might not. But we're not allowed to decide whether to change our minds and go to Kilnsey instead... wtf??

To refine your analogy,
100 of you get in shark's 3.2L BMW OakSeigeWagon and roll slowly up the A629 to Malham - there's no rush it's been 12 years. 52 of you are keen for Malham and 48 are vehemently against cryptic undercuts, sidepulls and being subjected to belay fury and obscenity-ridden tirades, and would much rather just go to Kilnsey because it's more like a typical Euro crag. Just as you approach the outskirts of Gargrave the met office app suggests conditions at Malham might not be 100% perfect for hard redpointing and the price of a pint in the Lister Arms has increased.
The 48 want to divert to Kilnsey as they kept saying all along, while a small group of the 52 Malham group are unhappy that conditions aren't going to allow for perfect conditions for their long-held dream of a redpoint of Rainman 9b, which everyone else in the car has always secretly thought is a totally unrealistic goal considering their previous best redpoint is 8b+. The discussion goes round and round in circles as does Shark's OakSeigeWagon while you all run out of fuel. A Northern Irish climber holds the credit card to pay for petrol but refuses to allow shark to use it. You get fuck all done.

[teestub]

What's the ending to the tale though Pete? Due to the disagreement, everyone ends up having to go to Robin Proctor Scar to climb on glued together choss, but there's a promise that, in the future, this will really turn out to be a 5 star crag with more opportunity that either Malham or Kilnsey?

[andy popp]

Whichever car journey is involved, the passengers are listening to a Jam Crack podcast interview with Ken Wilson, who is moaning about bolts and extolling the virtues of Lliwedd.

[Teaboy]

Why would anyone be heading to Malham if Kilnsey is in condition?

[Will Hunt]

What's the ending to the tale though Pete? Due to the disagreement, everyone ends up having to go to Robin Proctor Scar to climb on glued together choss, but there's a promise that, in the future, this will really turn out to be a 5 star crag with more opportunity that either Malham or Kilnsey?

Fake news! You imply that Robin Proctor's is held together with glue. It's not - it's falling apart.