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EU Referendum (Read 279413 times)

Oldmanmatt

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#525 Re: EU Referendum
February 17, 2019, 11:11:50 am
You will forgive my pointing out that if the above were the case they would both be honouring their manifesto pledges.

Ahhh.

Of course, the argument of the mythical Lemming.

Nicely done. Debate over, potential problems avoided.

Oldmanmatt

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#526 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 12:00:37 am
This all might go a little better, if Hunt and Fox would piss off and chase each other around some fields somewhere.
https://www.ft.com/content/9cd62bde-32ba-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5?sfns=1

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#527 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 08:58:48 am
You will forgive my pointing out that if the above were the case they would both be honouring their manifesto pledges.

Corbyn is plainly hoping for a Conservative curated disaster so he can get into power. May is gambling the country's future on trying to keep a terminally divergent party together. They are both fools who don't seem to grasp how bad no deal could be for the UK.

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#528 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 11:06:11 am
Or just possibly they both sincerely believe that the only thing worse than a no-deal Brexit would be the other remaining in/getting into power. In which case I have to agree with Corbyn on that at least.

Oldmanmatt

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#529 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 11:09:15 am
Or just possibly they both sincerely believe that the only thing worse than a no-deal Brexit would be the other remaining in/getting into power. In which case I have to agree with Corbyn on that at least.

Or, possibly, neither leader is listening to anything except their own thoughts and the loudest extremists in their parties, their parties are disintegrating because of it and all but the most “faithful” people are sick to the back teeth with all of them?

Edit:

Labour, currently, must hold the title for worst political “home goals” in the history of British politics.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 11:18:24 am by Oldmanmatt »

petejh

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#530 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 11:39:18 am
Or just possibly they both sincerely believe that the only thing worse than a no-deal Brexit would be the other remaining in/getting into power. In which case I have to agree with Corbyn on that at least.

Agreeing with Corbyn is fine, but it ignores the fact that the majority of people who recently voted on these issues in a democratic process expressed their will that a. Corbyn/Labour should not be in power, and b. the UK should not remain in the EU.

By playing political power games with what is a cross party issue just leaves everyone exasperated. All sides guilty, not just Labour.

tomtom

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#531 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 11:46:06 am
Or just possibly they both sincerely believe that the only thing worse than a no-deal Brexit would be the other remaining in/getting into power. In which case I have to agree with Corbyn on that at least.

Agreeing with Corbyn is fine, but it ignores the fact that the majority of people who recently voted on these issues in a democratic process expressed their will that a. Corbyn/Labour should not be in power, and b. the UK should not remain in the EU.

By playing political power games with what is a cross party issue just leaves everyone exasperated. All sides guilty, not just Labour.

The real problem is that yes more people voted that Corbyn/Labour should not be in power, and a different set of people voted that the UK should not remain in the EU.

petejh

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#532 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 11:49:17 am
Hence:

''playing political power games with what is a cross party issue just leaves everyone exasperated.''

sdm

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#533 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 12:16:39 pm
Agreeing with Corbyn is fine, but it ignores the fact that the majority of people who recently voted on these issues in a democratic process expressed their will that a. Corbyn/Labour should not be in power, and b. the UK should not remain in the EU.
Don't forget that the majority of people who voted also didn't vote for either the Conservatives or the DUP. They had a combined vote share of just 13,929,000 or 43%.

Apparently the wishes of 16,141,241 people (48%) can be ignored entirely. But the parties who got 2,212,241 (5%) fewer votes than this think they have a mandate to plow ahead with their interpretation of how to proceed for 2 years without considering the opinions of the 18,274,975 people (57%) of people who voted against the Conservative / DUP administration at the last election.

petejh

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#534 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 01:24:03 pm
Very simply..
In a two-option vote (Brexit referendum), the 48% result lost to the 52% result. How else can a binary choice vote have any meaning.

In a multiple option vote (general election), multiple combinations of outcomes are possible.

You’re attempting to make your case by conflating a binary option vote with a multiple option vote. It’s not a strong argument.

Whichever way you look at it Labour did not win the share of votes required to be in power. They have however, quite rightly, influenced the process of leaving the EU (for the better or worse depends on your viewpoint).

And..  if you want to start conflating apples and oranges, it would be more transparent to also acknowledge the difference in voter turnout between those who voted leave (not just remain as you do), and those who voted Labour (not just Con/DUP as you do).

sdm

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#535 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 03:16:43 pm
Quote
How else can a binary choice vote have any meaning.

How can it have any meaning? 48% voted broadly for things to stay the same, 52% voted for an undefined alternative.

With neither option being defined, we have asked a binary question for a nonbinary issue. Had it been a simple binary issue, we wouldn't have spent over 2 years arguing over what brexit might actually mean.

As it is, even the heads of the Vote Leave campaign can't agree with each other on what brexit means, our previous brexit secretaries can't agree with each other on what brexit means and the government who delivered the deal for the withdrawal agreement can't decide whether or not they want their own deal to be passed. They whipped the party to vote in favour of an amendment against their own deal.

I'm not suggesting that Labour have a mandate. Just that, by using their own logic, the conservatives/DUP don't.

The country (and parliament) are massively divided. The Conservatives (and Labour) should have been grown up enough to put aside party politics on such an important issue and should have worked together with the other parties to achieve a consensus that could actually be agreed upon and might have achieved a parliamentary majority.

Despite thinking brexit is a terrible idea, I think this would have been the correct way forward, even though I think it would have made remaining almost impossible.

tomtom

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#536 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 03:18:41 pm
Well, could we at least all agree that  both major political parties (labour and conservative) have generally been useless/hopeless/bad/fuckingawful (delete as applicable) here....?

Somebody's Fool

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#537 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 03:29:37 pm
If the Labour membership are all as desperate for a second referendum as the Guardian/anti-Corbyn mob would have us believe, why hasn't Chuka gone for a leadership challenge?

sheavi

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#538 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 04:15:36 pm
Because most LP members, it seems, are in a cult.

Yossarian

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#539 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 04:16:19 pm
As previously discussed:

That’s a bit rich from Chuka. He dangled before our noses the tantalising possibility there being a party leader / PM with actual at-the-coalface experience of garage DJing - someone who could literally claim to offer the illest flava in the House. And then he walked away because the Daily Mail doorstepped his gran...

Didn't know that.

Minister, Minister!

He has a past that would shaft him if he moved higher than he is.

source: Pob. Don't ask me for further details yet, source is on an island off Northumberland.

Exactly. They asked his gran if it was true that he once lost an arm-wrestling match against Lisa Maffia in Ayia Napa. She said no comment...

dunnyg

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#540 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 04:36:27 pm
If the majority of a party are in a "cult" as you say, does that not mean everyone else should leave (as they have?).

petejh

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#541 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 05:47:26 pm
Quote from: sdm

How can it have any meaning? 48% voted broadly for things to stay the same, 52% voted for an undefined alternative.

With neither option being defined, we have asked a binary question for a nonbinary issue. Had it been a simple binary issue, we wouldn't have spent over 2 years arguing over what brexit might actually mean.

As it is, even the heads of the Vote Leave campaign can't agree with each other on what brexit means, our previous brexit secretaries can't agree with each other on what brexit means and the government who delivered the deal for the withdrawal agreement can't decide whether or not they want their own deal to be passed. They whipped the party to vote in favour of an amendment against their own deal.

I'm not suggesting that Labour have a mandate. Just that, by using their own logic, the conservatives/DUP don't.

The country (and parliament) are massively divided. The Conservatives (and Labour) should have been grown up enough to put aside party politics on such an important issue and should have worked together with the other parties to achieve a consensus that could actually be agreed upon and might have achieved a parliamentary majority.

Despite thinking brexit is a terrible idea, I think this would have been the correct way forward, even though I think it would have made remaining almost impossible.

I completely agree (well almost completely - I wouldn’t agree with Labours’s customs union option, may as well remain in that case).

SA Chris

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#542 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 05:54:05 pm
You completely agree - including the "thinking brexit is a terrible idea" bit?

tc

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#543 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 05:54:57 pm
If the Labour membership are all as desperate for a second referendum as the Guardian/anti-Corbyn mob would have us believe, why hasn't Chuka gone for a leadership challenge?

I wonder if the "Gang of Seven" will do the honourable, democratic thing and stand down as MPs to force by-elections in their constituencies?
Actually, no -- I think I already know the answer to my own question.

petejh

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#544 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 06:04:30 pm
You completely agree - including the "thinking brexit is a terrible idea" bit?

No I completely agree with the paragraph from ‘The country’ onward, minus ‘Brexit terrible idea’ bit.
Should have been clearer  ::)

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#545 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 06:05:49 pm
Aw.

Oldmanmatt

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#546 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 07:38:16 pm
If the majority of a party are in a "cult" as you say, does that not mean everyone else should leave (as they have?).

Well, someone in the party is not happy:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/02/we-re-fucked-accidental-voiceover-bbc-footage-labour-split

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#547 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 09:21:37 pm
I wonder if the "Gang of Seven" will do the honourable, democratic thing and stand down as MPs to force by-elections in their constituencies?

Would you prioritise that, after what Luciana Berger has been through, were you her? It would become another platform for the anti semites of Wavertree- a place I know well, as it happens.

I will wait to see what the 7 do but if concern about Corbyn’s Brexit strategy is a motive, calling a by-election a few weeks before March 29th would be insane. In the longer term, of course.

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#548 Re: EU Referendum
February 18, 2019, 11:11:17 pm
If the Labour membership are all as desperate for a second referendum as the Guardian/anti-Corbyn mob would have us believe, why hasn't Chuka gone for a leadership challenge?

I wonder if the "Gang of Seven" will do the honourable, democratic thing and stand down as MPs to force by-elections in their constituencies?
Actually, no -- I think I already know the answer to my own question.

This comes across as rather sneery if you don't mind me saying so. I don't think these MPs did this for personal glorification; they're well aware of how precarious this makes their futures. FPTP voting gives them very little chance. They clearly weren't enjoying the experience, and will be well aware of the petty stream of Twitter abuse they'll be subjected to. Whatever you think of their decision you have to admit that it was a brave action. There are clearly many MPs who won't put their jobs and careers on the line for conviction, but these people have.

tc

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#549 Re: EU Referendum
February 19, 2019, 09:48:03 am
I fully expect my cynicism to prove well founded.

 

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