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EU Referendum (Read 279343 times)

i.munro

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#50 Re: EU Referendum
August 18, 2018, 09:28:24 pm
Lacking any plausible response on potential upsides from the Brexit faction I 've been given one by the Guardian! https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/18/endangered-birds-farming-uk-brexit

What do you think are the odds of that happening ?

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#51 Re: EU Referendum
August 20, 2018, 10:18:37 pm
I "get" the sovereignty aspect. I have similar sentiments re: Westminster/Holyrood. But the bit I never got about leaving the EU was how little was to be gained. Only ~10% of laws come from the EU and they mostly seem to deal with environmental protections, human rights, trade related regulations etc.

Most of those we'll have to keep aligning to no matter what type of brexit we end up with. I am still waiting for a brexiteer to show me 3 laws that are currently holding the UK back that will now be cast away.

Then there's the "unelected bureaucrat" line of reasoning. Which, 1) was false anyway, the decision makers in the EU are elected and 2) if we crash out on WTO trade rules, can you tell me who your local WTO representative is? How do you influence their decision making? Are they accountable?

Even if we get some kind of deal with the EU - we will be rule takers, with no influence.

I'd love to think that for all this shit we're going through there might be some kind of upside. I cannot see it. Anyone care to point me to it?


Meant to give a reply (which you won't agree with) earlier and got sidetracked.

It isn't about any particular '3 laws'. It's about the principle of being part-governed from outside the UK. I'm against that in principle because I believe it's fundamental to a proper democracy to be able to hold those in power fully accountable for the consequences of their actions and fully accountable for laws passed. You can scoff at that for various reasons, fine we all believe different things and I don't expect to find much agreement on the echo-chamber of UKB. But you seem to appreciate the principle of having governance from within Scotland. The principle I believe in isn't very different.

I'm all for trade agreements. I'm all for harmonisation of standards where it makes sense. I'm all for free movement of people - but with *some* more control so we can cherry pick the people we really need more than it seems we currently do. Those things don't also require a central government that has any say in UK affairs.
And I'd also prefer those principles were global as far as possible, not just European. I've more enthusiasm for working/living/freedom to travel in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ then I have for Belgium or Portugal. In case of doubt I'm a keen European traveler, I love the different cultures, and non-English language has never been an issue.

For those who think it doesn't matter where power is based, then does it really matter if the UK government has to take direction and have laws passed from Australia, or the US, or Canada as part of some 'global union'? If it does matter, why?

Any trade / economic issues - there are obviously pros and cons with leaving and people being people will work out new opportunities, new job roles, new markets, just as they always have and always will. Because they'll have to and necessity, not ideals, has always been the biggest driver of change. The evidence suggests to me long-term (and even short-term) little if any real negative change for the average person whether we're in or out.

So obviously the upside for me of leaving is I believe it will mean the UK government being 100% accountable to the people, without wiggle room. For any and all shitfests that occur within the country which they're entirely responsible for governing. I think this is important because I believe that sort of 'social contract' pressure will result over time in beneficial effects on how the country is governed. To me it seems fundamental to keeping power in check as far as possible (there will always be corruption and mismanagement).
In short I believe, disagree all you like, that being independent from *but closely linked to* the EU will make the UK a better place to live for the average person.

Don't bother trying to rebut as there's nothing new to be said. This is just what I believe. It isn't an attack on *your* beliefs or values.

I actually agree with a lot of your sentiments Pete, in principal, I just can't see the current mob getting us to the point you wish to get to, in practise. I genuinely think the damage that will is highly likely to be done to the environment, to workers rights, to public services will take a long, long time to put right. And I do think that is going to be worse our the EU than in it.

I'm secretly starting to hope for a cliff edge no deal Brexit with instant Scottish referendum in a fatalistic "burn it all down and start again" sentiment....

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#52 Re: EU Referendum
August 21, 2018, 11:01:21 am
Lacking any plausible response on potential upsides from the Brexit faction I 've been given one by the Guardian! https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/18/endangered-birds-farming-uk-brexit

What do you think are the odds of that happening ?


The CAP is certainly one of the biggest issues with the EU. But I don't see any possibility of the current government delivering any improvements. As for environmental protection, we've been reliant on the EU to deliver serious enforcement for many years. Over the last ten years the Conservatives have removed all the teeth from our own supposed watchdog.

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#53 Re: EU Referendum
August 21, 2018, 12:46:47 pm

It's about the principle of being part-governed from outside the UK. I'm against that in principle because I believe it's fundamental to a proper democracy to be able to hold those in power fully accountable for the consequences of their actions and fully accountable for laws passed...
...
Any trade / economic issues - there are obviously pros and cons with leaving and people being people will work out new opportunities, new job roles, new markets, just as they always have and always will. Because they'll have to and necessity, not ideals, has always been the biggest driver of change.
...
So obviously the upside for me of leaving is I believe it will mean the UK government being 100% accountable to the people, without wiggle room.

Thanks for that explanation of the nature of your beliefs Pete, have a wad from me for standing up for your views in a polite and well-articulated fashion.
I've copied out the bits I found interesting above, not trying to take them out of context.

I agree with you re: principle of accountability. But I do feel in practice it is unlikely to be achieved - what Ru said above. I don't think getting out of the EU will change this status quo at all.

In terms of necessity being the greatest driver of change, I disagree. I think necessity makes people focus on low-hanging fruit and miss the big picture. My feeling is that changes driven by necessity are incremental and solve the immediate problem. But history shows there have been many revolutionary changes - generally driven by ideology, ideas and beliefs that unite people. A quick list, off the top of my head of geopolitical world-changing events driven by ideas not necessity: Mongol invasions of China and Persia, the Crusades, Protestantism, French Revolution, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, C19th Imperialism, the Russian Revolution and communism. The invention of the internet. In fact, Brexit itself is a great example - it's not necessary, but it will drive change. I don't think just because we'll have to solve trading issues on our own means that we'll do it well/better than we'd have done with the EU.

This strikes at the heart of my issue with the idea of Brexit - while I can see that it does present an opportunity for a revision of the status quo, an opportunity to change life for the better in the UK, the mechanics for making this happen aren't apparent. It seems to me to presents an equal or greater risk for everything getting worse, for an increased pooling of power and resources with the privileged. It seems to me just as likely to play out in favour of the Establishment (hardline Brexiteer Tories are about as Establishment as it gets) as play out in favour of the people. The mechanics for this to happen are fairly obvious - powerful industrialist factions working in voting blocs to unwind all the laws from the EU that they didn't like re: human rights, workers rights etc etc.

i.munro

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#54 Re: EU Referendum
August 21, 2018, 05:36:14 pm
The CAP is certainly one of the biggest issues with the EU. But I don't see any possibility of the current government delivering any improvements. As for environmental protection, we've been reliant on the EU to deliver serious enforcement for many years. Over the last ten years the Conservatives have removed all the teeth from our own supposed watchdog.

Never mind the current lot! Even if the country were to recover it's lost sanity immediately post-brexit and somehow elect the most enlightened govt ever seen it would be a very brave PM who would prioritise the environment over food production and  a trade deal with the U.S. against a background of rising food prices and a faiing economy. I just find it somehow re-assuring to find one area where. albeit completelly theoretically, something good might have come from this madness.

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#55 Re: EU Referendum
August 21, 2018, 07:25:38 pm

It's about the principle of being part-governed from outside the UK. I'm against that in principle because I believe it's fundamental to a proper democracy to be able to hold those in power fully accountable for the consequences of their actions and fully accountable for laws passed...
...
Any trade / economic issues - there are obviously pros and cons with leaving and people being people will work out new opportunities, new job roles, new markets, just as they always have and always will. Because they'll have to and necessity, not ideals, has always been the biggest driver of change.
...
So obviously the upside for me of leaving is I believe it will mean the UK government being 100% accountable to the people, without wiggle room.

Thanks for that explanation of the nature of your beliefs Pete, have a wad from me for standing up for your views in a polite and well-articulated fashion.
I've copied out the bits I found interesting above, not trying to take them out of context.

I agree with you re: principle of accountability. But I do feel in practice it is unlikely to be achieved - what Ru said above. I don't think getting out of the EU will change this status quo at all.

In terms of necessity being the greatest driver of change, I disagree. I think necessity makes people focus on low-hanging fruit and miss the big picture. My feeling is that changes driven by necessity are incremental and solve the immediate problem. But history shows there have been many revolutionary changes - generally driven by ideology, ideas and beliefs that unite people. A quick list, off the top of my head of geopolitical world-changing events driven by ideas not necessity: Mongol invasions of China and Persia, the Crusades, Protestantism, French Revolution, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, C19th Imperialism, the Russian Revolution and communism. The invention of the internet. In fact, Brexit itself is a great example - it's not necessary, but it will drive change. I don't think just because we'll have to solve trading issues on our own means that we'll do it well/better than we'd have done with the EU.

This strikes at the heart of my issue with the idea of Brexit - while I can see that it does present an opportunity for a revision of the status quo, an opportunity to change life for the better in the UK, the mechanics for making this happen aren't apparent. It seems to me to presents an equal or greater risk for everything getting worse, for an increased pooling of power and resources with the privileged. It seems to me just as likely to play out in favour of the Establishment (hardline Brexiteer Tories are about as Establishment as it gets) as play out in favour of the people. The mechanics for this to happen are fairly obvious - powerful industrialist factions working in voting blocs to unwind all the laws from the EU that they didn't like re: human rights, workers rights etc etc.

That is a much nicer way of putting it all.
But, it still boils down to most enlightened and thoughtful Brexiteers, seriously underestimating the horrendous number of fickle, deluded, Fucknuggets (Sun, Daily Mail and Express readers) that this country actually contains.

Citations:
Any episode of Jeremy Kyle, most if not all Channel 4 and 5 programming. Any High street.
😉

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#56 Re: EU Referendum
August 23, 2018, 12:53:43 am
I do worry a little for those of us doing winter sun Euro trips this winter.

Do your concerns also extend to the two million British citizens who live in other EU countries?

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#57 Re: EU Referendum
October 30, 2018, 01:05:28 pm
Given there are two "EU Referendum" threads, I wanted to promote this story, which in my view reflects much of the "thinking" and beliefs I see expressed in the EU Referendum vote.

You may not agree with me about the connection. If not, please put that to one side, and consider the matter on it's own merit. Perhaps you think it has none. I heartily disagree!

Personally, I think that Kweku arguing his position on the grounds of "racism" misses the strongest point.

I want to promote this:


https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/keepkweku/

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#58 Re: EU Referendum
October 31, 2018, 08:35:30 am

Oldmanmatt

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#59 Re: EU Referendum
November 04, 2018, 11:40:33 am
So, we have now entered the Twilight Zone.

Did anyone else watch the Banks interview?

All the media reports about a “secret” deal?

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#60 Re: EU Referendum
November 04, 2018, 11:53:26 am
Did anyone else watch the Banks interview?

Nope - precis? (seen all the media stories about him but not the Marr interview - assuming it was Marr)

Oldmanmatt

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#61 Re: EU Referendum
November 04, 2018, 12:23:29 pm
Did anyone else watch the Banks interview?

Nope - precis? (seen all the media stories about him but not the Marr interview - assuming it was Marr)

Oh, um, precis? Yeah, ok.

He’s a two faced cunt.

Probably not what you meant.

I’ll try again:

If he could vote again, he’d vote remain.
(Some excuses and blaming of others).

Oldmanmatt

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#62 Re: EU Referendum
November 04, 2018, 01:01:17 pm
Did anyone else watch the Banks interview?

Nope - precis? (seen all the media stories about him but not the Marr interview - assuming it was Marr)

Oh, um, precis? Yeah, ok.

He’s a two faced cunt.

Probably not what you meant.

I’ll try again:

If he could vote again, he’d vote remain.
(Some excuses and blaming of others).

Ok. Counted to ten-ish (possibly quite a bit more).

A better synopsis, from a less incoherent source:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/04/arron-banks-no-russian-money-in-8m-given-to-brexit-campaign

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#63 Re: EU Referendum
November 11, 2018, 10:34:41 am
There aren't many journalists I actively enjoy reading, but Nick Cohen manages to be both incisive and merciless in his argument, time after time.

On Labour MPs who defy their Leave-voting constituents to argue for a second referendum:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/28/it-is-not-defying-voters-mps-to-try-to-make-them-think-again-on-brexit

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#64 Re: EU Referendum
November 14, 2018, 10:27:04 pm
Today in pictures:

 :oops:

 :badidea:

 :worms:

 :shit:

 :chair:

 :popcorn:

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#65 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 08:16:39 am
One down...

Not even 08:30 yet.

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#66 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 09:03:01 am
Next one gone. Big one too. Raab.

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#67 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 09:11:25 am
Resignation letter on Twitter @DominicRaab

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#68 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 09:11:43 am
What an unmitigated cunt

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#69 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 09:16:44 am
What an unmitigated cunt

Yup. Fucknugget. He negotiated the fucking agreement then quits when he doesn’t like it.

That is the one thing they all do. Get us in shit then quit. Cameron. Boris. Davis. Raab.

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#70 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 09:18:57 am
From a Chuka tweet:

Er...you negotiated it, you promised the earth as part of Vote Leave and now you walk off and leave others to clear up the mess? Seriously? These people are shameless.

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#71 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 09:30:17 am
From a Chuka tweet:

Er...you negotiated it, you promised the earth as part of Vote Leave and now you walk off and leave others to clear up the mess? Seriously? These people are shameless.

I think the pertinent point is that he didn't negotiate it. Which begs the question, what has he actually been doing?

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#72 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 09:40:38 am
That’s a bit rich from Chuka. He dangled before our noses the tantalising possibility there being a party leader / PM with actual at-the-coalface experience of garage DJing - someone who could literally claim to offer the illest flava in the House. And then he walked away because the Daily Mail doorstepped his gran...

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#73 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 09:50:20 am
I think the pertinent point is that he didn't negotiate it. Which begs the question, what has he actually been doing?

Pocketing a ministerial salary, while demonstrating the Peter Principle?

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#74 Re: EU Referendum
November 15, 2018, 10:05:29 am
Third one gone - Esther McVey.

 

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