[teestub]

Excellent, I never thought you’d be in favour of revoking Article 50 

[Oldmanmatt]

Should MPs still be making decisions based on how people voted however long ago, now that the sort of deal available has become more crystallised, along with the erm... ‘alternative facts’ largely relied on by the leave side (not to mention illegal activities)?

I say yes. You probably say no. 'Lets call the whole thing off' 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/17/saturday-uk-remain-parliament-force-second-referendum?CMP=share_btn_fb

[TobyD]

The way labour are acting makes me wonder if Corbyn - and his master, McDonnell -  would play party politics with absolutely any issue of national importance just to obstruct on ideological grounds.

I agree. However incompetently one deems May to have handled Brexit so far, Corbyn et al have been more dishonest, less realistic and don't even have the responsibility.

The whole current situation is proof positive that representative and direct democracy cannot work in tandem. That's certainly a British issue, not a conservative or any particular party's sole problem.

[sdm]

But Brexit belongs to the Tories and the Tories alone. David Cameron called a referendum purely to try and end an internal civil war and to protect his right flank from UKIP. He then spearheaded a lacklustre and complacent remain campaign and promptly fucked off when he lost, refusing to accept any responsibility (ditto other senior Tories). Since then May has been mercilessly cowed by the ERG. This is the Tories to own.

If there had been any opposition from Corbyn for the last 3 years, maybe the ERG wouldn't have been able to assume the position of the de facto opposition. With the only vocal opposition on nearly every issue coming from the extremes of the tory party it is amazing that, since ruling out freedom of movement, May has avoided any further concessions to the hard brexiters.

You're entirely wrong that Brexit is the tories to own. A huge number of people across all party allegiances voted to leave the EU. Making out that it's a tory issue is disingenuous, and usefully shields you from any responsibility for  turning the other cheek and accepting your personally held views dind't prevail in a fair vote and putting aside lab/con binary thinking for the sake of making the best out of a situation you'd prefer not to find yourself in. Your attitude reeks to me of self-righteousness.

There wouldn't have been a referendum without the conservatives and they alone are responsible for the terms of the referendum which ensured the division and ill feeling across the country (we would have been just as divided had it been 52% the other way).

But that doesn't excuse Corbyn's inaction ever since. An attitude of "they started it" isn't helping anything.

The Conservatives' refusal to include all parties in talks from the start was a terrible decision. Labour's refusal to join the talks now with the clock ticking is just as bad.

[Somebody's Fool]

If there had been any opposition from Corbyn for the last 3 years, maybe the ERG wouldn't have been able to assume the position of the de facto opposition.

Doesn't the last three years include the general election where he wiped out the government's majority?

[Johnny Brown]

I was surprised by the scale of the defeat on Tuesday. If Brexit has any chance of happening then May's deal is it.

I'm no Corbyn fan but surprised and pleased to see his redline over no deal. Parliament know it isn't an option and cannot happen - high time the tories admit this and stop pretending it is a bargaining chip.

Right now, I'm happy that Leave won the referendum because it has forced the nation to act and take them seriously. I think we'd be in a worse place had the result gone the other way with the same margin, because the leavers would genuinely have been ignored and their rhetoric left unexamined. As it was the small margin of victory was a mandate to take them very seriously, but far from being big enough that three years down the line we should be unable to revisit the question.

The failure of Brexit is entirely due to the failure of the Leavers to own their victory, get involved and make it happen. Their only response to the difficulties of reality has been to bluster then flounce out. It isn't an adult way to deal with the EU whether you're a country or a minister. The breathtaking arrogance of a minority PM to not take a cross-party approach is another component, though I'm far from convinced the leavers on the other side of the house had much more to offer. Leave have had their opportunity, they squandered it.

I cannot see another way forward but another referendum. A proper one, with minimum turnout, specified super-majority and a binding result on actual concrete options. Corbyn is desperate for an election but that won't solve much.

The whole thing is a very strong mandate for massive reform, particularly proportional representation. FPTP and the biggest minority takes all is not fit for modern voting patterns.

[tc]

It is suggested that the current FPTP system is only beneficial for the SNP and Conservatives, who would both lose out if the voting system was changed to PR. In other words, with the current seat allocation in Parliament, PR just ain't gonna happen.

[Will Hunt]

To be fair to FPTP, it has kept Parliament almost entirely UKIP free (obviously under PR people may have been more careful with their protest votes at the last elections). But outsider parties who nevertheless pose a threat to a big player still have the power to pull the debate in their direction (see the absolute political masterclass that has been Farage for about the last 10 years. Never had a seat himself, his party has never won a seat at a GE, yet has been fundamental in precipitating the biggest home-grown political crisis the country has seen in 100 years).

[Nutty]

The whole thing is a very strong mandate for massive reform, particularly proportional representation. FPTP and the biggest minority takes all is not fit for modern voting patterns.

FPTP is a terrible system and it winds me up no end when politicians claim they have a mandate based on results in a general election, ignoring the huge amount of tactical voting that FPTP encourages and the suppression of valid votes for minor parties. How many times do people not vote for the party they most agree with, but instead vote for the party most likely to beat the party they don't want to win in their constituency? I know when I've voted for Labour it's only ever been as a 'not Conservative' vote. The huge differences between the percentage of the vote a party receives and their representation in parliament is a joke. I'm no UKIP fan, but they should have some MPs. The Greens should have more than 1.

Which government is going to implement reforms of the system that put them in power though? The major parties see the AV vote as having put the issue to bed for a generation.

[teestub]

To be fair to FPTP, it has kept Parliament almost entirely UKIP free (obviously under PR people may have been more careful with their protest votes at the last elections). .

This isn't an advantage, it's a huge disadvantage; most of the PR parliaments in the world have seats occupied by far-from-centre parties and they get as much attention as they should based on their number of seats, and you don't end up with our situation where millions of people have voted for a party and not ended up with any parliamentary representation.  I'm sure Farage would like to claim brexit as being his, but do you think the Tories would have been moved to do anything if there wasn't so much anti EU feeling within their own party?

[tomtom]

We all had our chance to vote for a major change in the voting system back in 2012 or 13 (I think?).....

But too many vested interests in Labour and Conservative to push for it.

I agree with a lot of what JB said and Teestub - the inability of our system to represent (somehow) all views enables discontent to bubble up until it becomes hard to handle properly...

[TobyD]

Two interesting Brexit related pieces:


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/18/brexit-climate-change-yemen-gaza-irish-backstop
#



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-46919072

[tc]

As a counterbalance to the views expressed by Tory Party Propaganda Units (formerly known as the BBC, SKY, etc.), I offer you this:


https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2019/01/18/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-blame-corbyn-for-refusing-to-talk-with-theresa-may/

[TobyD]

As a counterbalance to the views expressed by Tory Party Propaganda Units (formerly known as the BBC, SKY, etc.), I offer you this:
https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2019/01/18/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-blame-corbyn-for-refusing-to-talk-with-theresa-may/

Probably the least well argued political piece I've ever read. A nice illustration of why reliable news sources employ actual trained, experienced journalists. If Corbyn did ' his job' to quote the article, he would oppose Brexit, his behaviour is childish and unproductive. He has been the least consistent or transparent of any significant politician I can bring to mind, other than Boris Johnson.

[highrepute]

As a counterbalance to the views expressed by Tory Party Propaganda Units (formerly known as the BBC, SKY, etc.), I offer you this:
https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2019/01/18/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-blame-corbyn-for-refusing-to-talk-with-theresa-may/

Probably the least well argued political piece I've ever read. A nice illustration of why reliable news sources employ actual trained, experienced journalists. If Corbyn did ' his job' to quote the article, he would oppose Brexit, his behaviour is childish and unproductive. He has been the least consistent or transparent of any significant politician I can bring to mind, other than Boris Johnson.

Some pretty strong Corbyn bashing going on here, not just Toby.

I wonder this is fair or tainted by negative way the Tories and press portray him.

As I understand it he for honouringthe result of the referendum and wants a GE because a labour Brexit would be better than a Tory one. Beyond that "all options are on the table". Where are the lack of transparencies or inconsistencies in this?

I can agree that he's not been anti Brexit. And as a remainer that grates. But he's consistently called the Tory Brexit crap - find me a quote that you don't like or is inconsistent?

One can argue that he has made too many political manoeuvres. But remember he is a politician and his priority is not stopping Brexit it's getting into power, where he'd be most effective, in his opinion.

I admit he's not the most inspirational and his performances at PMQ can be frustratingly bad. But I'm not convinced anyone else could do better. Have SNP or LibDem leaders been more effective against Brexit?

[tomtom]

Corbyn should have one of the easiest positions in modern political times. That is leader of opposition to:

Minority government trying to push through a highly unpopular bill - on a contentious issue that affects the country for years to come. Governed by a stubborn narrow minded Pm. Propped up by ultra right wing DUP head swivellers. Meanwhile Rome burns with record rates of homelessness and poverty.

I think JC was surprisingly effective in the last GE - and he’s been surprisingly effective in keeping most of his party in line (though deselection threats from momentum probably is the big stock there).

But as a paid up Lp member I can’t stand him. At the moment he’s ‘less worse’ than May and that’s about all I can positively say about him.

I understand the LP’s tactics re brexit - but how they are appearing or communicating them comes across as just being anti everything rather than seeking solutions... maybe this isn’t their position and it’s a MSM thing - but they have to play that game - and look how Kier Starner and Yvette Cooper can create a constructive narrative rather than ‘I’m not going to talk to you unless you drop x or y’. Come on that’s being just as pathetic as May having red lines...

[tc]

But as a paid up Lp member I can’t stand him. At the moment he’s ‘less worse’ than May and that’s about all I can positively say about him.
..

Time for him to step aside and make way for Starmer and/or Thornberry?

[Oldmanmatt]

Corbyn is a political ideologue, out of touch with his own party, elevated to his position by cult-like followers on a “trendy” whim and playing politics with a decision and future that will have lasting repercussions for generations.
He is not doing this for the “good of the people”, he’s doing it for the good of his political mantra (one where “the people” are mainly supposed to shut up and do as the State commands. I think people are forgetting the core of pure socialism, he’s not after theScandinavian model, here), every bit as much as the ERG and DUP do as they do for their own twisted idiocy.

Edit:
By which I mean:
A party leader is meant to represent the collective will of his party membership, not their own will exclusively. When their own principles conflict with the apparent will of the members, they should be resigning and putting their names back on the ballot for leadership; to determine their true mandate. Ploughing on is not noble, it is wrong. This, in it’s entirety, could could have been written about May.

[tomtom]

Corbyn does have the power to make a deal happen though. Or a referendum.

There are enough Tories who would back either/and a Norway style thingy or Ref- to have a parliamentary majority if he got the (fairly well ordered) labour bloc behind it.

[tc]

Corbyn is a political ideologue, out of touch with his own party, elevated to his position by cult-like followers on a “trendy” whim and playing politics with a decision and future that will have lasting repercussions for generations.

And here's an alternative view:

The game the Labour Party leadership has played culminated in the government suffering the biggest defeat of any British government in history. There have been 32 resignations from government since June 2017. The government has been defeated more times in the last 18 months than the governments of John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron combined.
Despite being routinely undermined by his own party and smeared by almost the entire mainstream media, Corbyn’s Labour won 40% of the vote share in the election. It was the biggest increase in vote share for Labour in any election since 1945 and wiped out the Tory majority.

Just saying, like...

[teestub]

Corbyn does have the power to make a deal happen though. Or a referendum.

There are enough Tories who would back either/and a Norway style thingy or Ref- to have a parliamentary majority if he got the (fairly well ordered) labour bloc behind it.

Have you got any refs for this? Thought we were still a long way off a majority for either.

[Hugh]

Corbyn does have the power to make a deal happen though. Or a referendum.

There are enough Tories who would back either/and a Norway style thingy or Ref- to have a parliamentary majority if he got the (fairly well ordered) labour bloc behind it.

Have you got any refs for this? Thought we were still a long way off a majority for either.

Simon Wren-Lewis has written a good post on the parliamentary numbers https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2019/01/parliaments-brexit-game.html?m=1

[Oldmanmatt]

Corbyn is a political ideologue, out of touch with his own party, elevated to his position by cult-like followers on a “trendy” whim and playing politics with a decision and future that will have lasting repercussions for generations.

And here's an alternative view:

The game the Labour Party leadership has played culminated in the government suffering the biggest defeat of any British government in history. There have been 32 resignations from government since June 2017. The government has been defeated more times in the last 18 months than the governments of John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron combined.
Despite being routinely undermined by his own party and smeared by almost the entire mainstream media, Corbyn’s Labour won 40% of the vote share in the election. It was the biggest increase in vote share for Labour in any election since 1945 and wiped out the Tory majority.

Just saying, like...

Then they are failing.


Of the last ten major polls, four put Labour (slightly) ahead, four put the Tories (slightly) ahead and two have them neck and neck...

Carrying parliament does not make Corbyn PM, that requires bringing the voting public into agreement with his world view. Despite the shitshow the Tories entertain us with daily, Labour have failed to swing the vote.

And, I would argue, the Tories have been consistently stabbing each other in the back, on the odd occasion they’re not too busy shooting themselves in the foot, whilst simultaneously offending large swathes of the population... All without any effort on the part of Labour and without handing Labour a decisive majority.

[chris j]

And here's an alternative view:

The game the Labour Party leadership has played culminated in the government suffering the biggest defeat of any British government in history. There have been 32 resignations from government since June 2017. The government has been defeated more times in the last 18 months than the governments of John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron combined.
Despite being routinely undermined by his own party and smeared by almost the entire mainstream media, Corbyn’s Labour won 40% of the vote share in the election. It was the biggest increase in vote share for Labour in any election since 1945 and wiped out the Tory majority.

Just saying, like...

I would give total credit to the Tory party doing this to themselves without any assistance from Corbyn and the Labour party. They are not so much playing a game as standing on the sidelines bickering among themselves over what game to play!

Given the circumstances any competent opposition should be miles ahead in the polls. But then it's clear the Labour party are as split as the Tories with Corbyn's stance as a not so closet Brexiteer and the fundamentally opposed position of most of the PLP. That the British public apparently sees May as a more competent leader than JC is mindboggling and should be deeply worrying for him,  he's failing utterly to reach out beyond the faithful.

[TobyD]

I really think that over the last two years since the vote, the labour / conservative binary has become increasingly irrelevant; to some extent replaced by a leave / remain one. But all the same I think trying to be idealogically critical of one party is a mistake as members of opposite 'sides' have more in common than they might with their own respective colleagues. Yvette Cooper hardly sees eye to eye with Corbyn / MacDonald; or Nick Boles with May.

In my view Corbyn and May are both totally incompetent to lead in the current situation but in very different ways, though at least Mays deal is realistic to the EU if not UK parliament, whereas Corbyns bright idea is unrealistic if not technically impossible.