[tomtom]

I'm not sure what your intention was in posting this but if it was to say that the labour party is in just as bad a place as the conservative party at the moment, I agree.

Aside from the point of putting words into Matt's mouth, do you really believe that? Personally I don't think anything comes remotely close to comparing to the bizarro world the Conservatives are currently running amok in. The two examples you give - of a policy discussion (normal for a conference?) and reselection ballots for MP's (now cancelled afaik?) don't seem on quite the same level as shutting down the Houses of Parliament for 5 weeks at this "critical time in politics", and being taken to the Supreme Court for it, and also summarily dismissing 21 MP's. Maybe its just me?

Tory and Labour divisions are very different in magnitude and area. But there are many similarities.

Both are being pulled in a direction by their members (hard brexit tory, fairly hard left Labour) that most of their MP’s are not especially happy with. You could argue that both are being manipulated from outside (leave EU etc.. and Momentum).

Whilst BJ has outlawed 21 MP’s - I’d argue that Under BJ the Tories are a tighter unit than Labour - where JC seems to ignore the majority view of its members and most of their Mp’s (remain).

What I find truly remarkable is that it’s like watching an example emporers new clothes in both Labour and Tory leadership.

Lib Dem’s is an interesting one - it certainly removes any ambiguity! Though tbh I figured the LibDems were already had the clearest brexit position so whether it’s needed or not is questionable. Possibly they were empowered by their bollox to brexit euro campaign success. Though at face value it seems like a renerkabke move away from the centre ground that no one else was occupying.

[petejh]

I'm predicting the birth of the Nihilism Party and their sweep to victory. Manifesto pledge: It's all too difficult. Fuck it.

[tomtom]

I'm predicting the birth of the Nihilism Party and their sweep to victory. Manifesto pledge: It's all too difficult. Fuck it.

No need for a nihilism party it’s all burning to the ground as we watch...

[Oldmanmatt]

Can I nominate Fiend for PM?

[TobyD]

I'm not sure what your intention was in posting this but if it was to say that the labour party is in just as bad a place as the conservative party at the moment, I agree.

Aside from the point of putting words into Matt's mouth, do you really believe that? ...

 MP's. Maybe its just me?

Yes. Labour is in a worse place than the conservative party. Corbyn is the least popular leader of any opposition, ever. His stance on brexit is ridiculous, everyone understands that he wants to leave but won't say so. Labour are in the process of making themselves totally unelectable for years  to come. The conservative party is hardly in great shape but if Johnson pulls off a deal (unlikely I know) they will win an election.

[Oldmanmatt]

Umm..

What I said above, about  how I hoped that Bozo was possibly being more adept and Statesman like than it appeared?

Yeah.

Umm.

Nah.

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-jennifer-arcuri-overruled-officials-send-trade-missions-2019-9?utm_source=bestforbritain.org&r=US&IR=T

[TobyD]

Umm..

What I said above, about  how I hoped that Bozo was possibly being more adept and Statesman like than it appeared?

Yeah.

Umm.

Nah.

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-jennifer-arcuri-overruled-officials-send-trade-missions-2019-9?utm_source=bestforbritain.org&r=US&IR=T

Indeed. A quick scan through the papers shows how completely unstatesman like both main party leaders are. The report on Johnson's relationship with this model in the Sunday times is pretty damning, although mainly by inference. The resignation of Corbyns adviser makes him look similarly awful, though in a different way.

[tomtom]

I disagree on the parallels between the leaders though.

Both are puppets to a seemingly fair degree.

But I would argue that BJ has a pretty loathesome set of values. Liar, adulterer, not trustworthy, stabs friends and colleagues in the back to get power. Seemingly has no shame.

Wherras JC clearly has a very strong set of beliefs and values - we may not all agree with them all but he has those and follows them.

[Duma]

Toby also has a very strong principles regarding never letting any remotely political post go by without replying to rubbish corbyn in some way, relevant or not.

[andy popp]

Highly enjoyable review of Cameron's new memoir: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/sep/22/for-the-record-david-cameron-review

[seankenny]

Wherras JC clearly has a very strong set of beliefs and values - we may not all agree with them all but he has those and follows them.

He believes in human rights and is against genocide, unless it's his political buddies trashing the former and enacting the later, in which case, all cool.

You are right, we may not all agree with that.

[Moo]

It seems like it's corbyn's refusal start madly banging a set of drums for one side or the other which is driving the press mad. It makes it too difficult for them to report on what he's actually saying as he hasn't taken a dichotomous approach to anything.

If you look at the situation and polarised political divide, we currently have, I believe his proposition is the most likely to yield and outcome which the majority of people can be at peace with. Unfortunately you have to actually go and do the tiniest amount of reading to get to grips with what he is proposing and it won't fit in bold type on the front page so the press are being pathetically useless with it.

[seankenny]

It seems like it's corbyn's refusal start madly banging a set of drums for one side or the other which is driving the press mad. It makes it too difficult for them to report on what he's actually saying as he hasn't taken a dichotomous approach to anything.

I have seen interviews in which Cobyn makes it quite clear what he wants to do. He is refusing to take a side on the biggest political question of our time. One can only speculate why.

But it's worse than that. His suggestion that we could, with a Labour deal, be economically better off outside the EU is just nonsense. Honestly, why do these over-promoted public school drop-outs get the idea that they know more about the economics of leaving the EU than the legions of professionals tasked with actually investigating the question, who have all* found that it would make us poorer than staying in. He is tasked with making life better for millions of less well-off Britons, a task it seems he is unable to fulfill.

If you look at the situation and polarised political divide, we currently have, I believe his proposition is the most likely to yield and outcome which the majority of people can be at peace with. Unfortunately you have to actually go and do the tiniest amount of reading to get to grips with what he is proposing and it won't fit in bold type on the front page so the press are being pathetically useless with it.

As above, it's pretty obvious what he's proposing (at least until you ask if a Labour government will campaign for or against leaving the EU, at which point the party ummm and ahhh and ask us to trust them until after the election). The polling I've seen suggests that it has lost them some votes, which suggests that voters aren't seeing it as creating an outcome they would be happy with.

Emails from my Labour MP this weekend suggest that many of them in what should be safe seats are bricking it.


* Yeah yeah yeah Patrick Minford and his outdated 1970s approach excepted.

[tomtom]

Emails from my Labour MP this weekend suggest that many of them in what should be safe seats are bricking it..

My MP called me yesterday afternoon hoping to secure my support in an upcoming selection ballot.

[tomtom]

Wherras JC clearly has a very strong set of beliefs and values - we may not all agree with them all but he has those and follows them.

He believes in human rights and is against genocide, unless it's his political buddies trashing the former and enacting the later, in which case, all cool.

You are right, we may not all agree with that.

Yup. I don’t like what I know about JC.

To answer one of the other questions - I think it’s quite reasonable for the press to hold his toes to the fire on his fence sitting. In an issue that seemingly splits the country (with a fairly small amount of don’t knows - and very few people have seemed to shift from one camp to another) so what vote is he hoping to pick up?

I genuinely can’t see who it appeals to?

[Oldmanmatt]

I think the suggestion that Corbyn’s problems are all to do with the media disliking his Brexit stance, is way off base.
Half of his own party and a good many of his immediate senior staff, can’t stand to be in the same room as him and seem to think him “inhumane”. His Marr interview was a train wreck and he looked like an out and out liar.
Both major parties are in the grip of muppets.

[Moo]

Yeah he's refusing to pick a side and that's because plenty of labour voters opted for leave and and ton of them voted remain. If he chose a side he'd automatically lose half his vote so that's a lose, lose one scenario. I think his neutral stance makes sense in that light. There's no way we can simply abolish brexit in the way that the lib dems are suggesting, that would say to over 17 million people that their vote didn't matter, so the remain supporters ( of which I am one ) need to understand that we can't just ignore those people.

[tomtom]

He wouldn’t lose half the vote for backing remain.... Hasn’t there been a load of opinion polls of labour voters showing the downsides of backing remain are much smaller than having no position?

Anyway... To me the glaring problem with JC’s plan is that it’s contingent/based on making a decision/referendum on an EU deal that’s not been negotiated yet.

That’s a tough ask for people of both sides to believe in I think...

Unless I’ve misunderstood the Labour plan. Which would say something in itself l😃

[TobyD]

Toby also has a very strong principles regarding never letting any remotely political post go by without replying to rubbish corbyn in some way, relevant or not.

That's rather unfair, to be honest it's not so much him as Seamus Milne, Len McCluskey, Andrew Murray that I really object to; or rather I object to the way a dogmatic hard left position has turned the party I most want to vote for, and have done in the past into a mess. I hold the same scorn for the Labour leadership as I do for Johnson and the bunch of lightweight also rans who somehow are occupying the front bench.

[seankenny]

The problem with the "outcome that brings everyone together" is that there's no such thing. If you assume that the best reflection of the tight vote on an undefined outcome is some kind of SM/CU, technically out of the EU but only just so not economically too damaging... well that's absolutely pointless. All the rules with none of the say in making them. It absolutely doesn't put the issue to bed, but allows it to continue to poison British politics and public life for years - and the Eurosceptics would have a genuine point. As would Remainers/Rejoiners.

Why would you even bother to negotiate this? Everyone is going to hate you, and it's going to be reversed at some point anyhow.

Leaving on the terms we have, or no deal, similarly puts us in position for years of bruising negotations, economic slowdown, loss of rights, possible violence in N.I. and we'll be easy pickings for China and the US. I can't see how that's going to heal any divisions.

Clearly, simply Remaining leaves a lot of pissed off people, but there is an argument for it: two Parliaments, have tried and failed to implement the result of the referendum. It's mandate has been tested to destruction, and it's nearly destroyed the UK (quite literally). Time to stop this madness, and a Labour/Lib-Dem coalition (the realistic best option if you're not a rapid nationalist) would have the mandate to do so. If you believe in Parliamentary democracy, that is.

That of course requires a senior politician to make the argument that democracy is a process, not a single event. Clearly, Corbyn is not that person .We want him to help it go away and he won't use the power he has accrued to do so. He cannot understand that makes him a lightening rod for the anger that's swirling around.

Naturally there are downsides to this: a lot of disgruntled people who have lost faith in democracy. A risk of far-right violence. But we have both these things already - they are international trends. At least the demographic winds would be in a helpful direction with this one...

We're stuck with this shit for years, whether we like it or not, so might as well push for something we believe in.

[tomtom]

Incidentally - my local MP (dianna johnson) is the first to go under the Labour re-selection process. I'm an inactive Labour party member. She rang me up yesterday to chat about it. Quite empowering to

Toby also has a very strong principles regarding never letting any remotely political post go by without replying to rubbish corbyn in some way, relevant or not.

(Meant to post this yesterday but it didnt go off for some reason.)

Ha! I can't stand Corbyn and hate how Momentum etc.. are reshaping tearing the party apart..Their (Mo) tactics of division "you're a blairite" or "you're XYZ" etc.. are the same/just as bad as Vote Leave etc... in my view.

Intersting commentary in a couplel of papers today (reflecting OMM's FT comments) about the business community coming around to a Labour govt being a safer pair of hands than a Tory one... those "Trotsky" economic plans of raising corporation tax to 23% would just be putting it back to 2011 levels (for example..). 

[teestub]

Tom, have you been a labour member for a while or were you part of the Corbyn inspired intake? You think you’d still vote for them in the next election if he’s at the helm?

[tomtom]

Tom, have you been a labour member for a while or were you part of the Corbyn inspired intake? You think you’d still vote for them in the next election if he’s at the helm?

I joined to vote against him at the last leadership thing - and been in ever since. Though known/spoken to our local MP since 2007...

Its really tricky for me - as I think our local MP is both a great local MP as well as a good backbencher - raising lots of issues (she championed the contaminated bloods campaigning in parliament - that led to it getting a public enquiry etc..)... So I'd want to vote LibDem on Brexit things - and probably many other from a national perspective, but like what our existing (decent majority) Labour MP is doing.

Not an unusual position I suspect.... from all sides of politics.

[teestub]

I wonder if your MP will be tempted to move over to LD if getting deselected, you could get both of your wishes!

[Oldmanmatt]

Obviously, this is nothing but opinion.

I really struggle to understand the people of this country, in the main. Swing voters in particular. We have ended up with a ridiculous two party system, less because of the FTP, I think, than because centrists, refuse to vote for centrist parties. We pick extremist parties, when lead by people who present as moderates, and hope they can keep their extremist members in check.
Then watch in despair as the country lurches from left to right, like a gyroscope slowing down. The metaphor being all the more apt, since the drag on our economy of the latest frictions, might just precipitate the gyro’s final collapse to one side or the other.
It’s not pretty or predictable when the top falls from it’s axis. It skitters off in a destructive maelstrom.