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EU Referendum (Read 279369 times)

BrutusTheBear

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#1000 Re: EU Referendum
May 24, 2019, 08:01:55 pm
Of course being humane is the ideal that we should all perhaps aspire to.  However, if you happen to be disabled, poor or indeed just plain unlucky you will have experienced directly the inhumanity that the government, she chose to lead, has inflicted upon it’s own citizens.   She can shed a few tears, retire to a country retreat and enjoy the ill gotten gains that she enabled hubby to get whilst in power.  Maybe whilst she’s got some free time she can look for the files she ‘lost’ on high powered paedophile rings.  So I am really struggling to find any sympathy for what she has lost...   Call me cynical but I personally believe the only sense of duty she has is deeply entrenched in the desire for personal gain and the pursuit of power to enable further personal gain (far too many politicians on all sides of the house with this attitude, could do with a clear out of all the gravy trainers..).  Now we’ll sit back to see what shit shower she is replaced with,  brace yourself people! 

tomtom

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#1001 Re: EU Referendum
May 24, 2019, 08:27:59 pm
Interesting guardian commentary saying a deal of any sort is now dead. Arguing it’s now no deal or no brexit.

mrjonathanr

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#1002 Re: EU Referendum
May 24, 2019, 10:52:59 pm
Her ‘hostile environment’ turned the Home Office from one that should serve us all into a racist institution that has wreaked- and continues to wreak- misery on UK citizens.

How many of the Windrush deportees have died? 11 According to Javid, with others ‘unaccounted for’.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/12/windrush-11-people-wrongly-deported-from-uk-have-died-sajid-javid

It doesn’t matter if she considers it was her duty, that’s the defence of many a monstrous act. Her legacy is a disgrace.

I suspect who comes next will be worse, though.

mrjonathanr

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#1003 Re: EU Referendum
May 24, 2019, 11:21:54 pm
You know, suddenly, there’s √0 Euro election coverage...

It’s just possible the best thing about May’s resignation and the impending new PM, might be the complete overshadowing of  Farage’s moment of glory.

Please?

France doesn’t vote on weekdays and all the results need to be in first.

sdm

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#1004 Re: EU Referendum
May 24, 2019, 11:34:04 pm
Interesting guardian commentary saying a deal of any sort is now dead. Arguing it’s now no deal or no brexit.
Was this not always the case?

The majority of tories will not vote for anything involving a customs union or freedom of movement, Labour won't vote for anything without a customs union, the DUP won't vote for anything (because anything other than the absolute softest of soft brexits necessitates a border).

So there can't be a majority in this parliament in favour of anything other than maybe people voting for something they disagree with purely out of fear of an even worse outcome if they don't.

This should never have been negotiated by a single party (especially one without even a majority). Maybe if all parties had had input from the beginning, a compromise might have been achievable.

Once May decided it would be a tory only brexit and once she decided freedom of movement was her one redline, this was inevitable. This failure is hers to own.

TobyD

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#1005 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 12:08:21 am
But isn't that actually the plan ... let's start ramping up the privatisation of the NHS and getting the chlorinated chicken rolling in.


Now these two I frankly care less about than I do EU membership. The NHS is falling to pieces without the aid of a politician of any party, probably be hastened when we leave as well. This is said with resignation and not relish. No private company in its right mind would take on much of what the NHS does.

There are more important things to worry about than chickens. ( This isn't entirely serious I am concerned about animal welfare, before I get burnt at the steak, sorry... )

Back to the actual topic... Good post Dave T, I have considerable sympathy for Theresa May, not for her performance or record in office but for the way she's been treated by people such as IDS, whose smug crowing today was nauseating, especially when he tried to say in an interview on five live that he'd had a harder job as an opposition leader than she has as PM. Given that he was a massive failure on every level, it's pretty rich really.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 12:14:15 am by TobyD »

monkoffunk

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#1006 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 05:36:20 am
But isn't that actually the plan ... let's start ramping up the privatisation of the NHS and getting the chlorinated chicken rolling in.


Now these two I frankly care less about than I do EU membership. The NHS is falling to pieces without the aid of a politician of any party, probably be hastened when we leave as well.

Not to go off topic, but interested to know what makes you think this? What do you see as the cause of the NHS falling to pieces?
 
I ask because from my perspective it seems like for the NHS to survive you need political will. I don’t know if the future of our healthcare includes the NHS as we know it, or some insurance system or part privatisation, but I would argue that the lack of political action currently is the deliberate ‘aid’ to hasten the decline of the NHS.

TobyD

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#1007 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 08:49:03 am
But isn't that actually the plan ... let's start ramping up the privatisation of the NHS and getting the chlorinated chicken rolling in.


Now these two I frankly care less about than I do EU membership. The NHS is falling to pieces without the aid of a politician of any party, probably be hastened when we leave as well.

Not to go off topic, but interested to know what makes you think this? What do you see as the cause of the NHS falling to pieces?

Working  for it. Knowing that there is no realistic amount of money that will fix it.

Leaving with no deal will hasten this.

Nigel

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#1008 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 10:48:36 am
Knowing that there is no realistic amount of money that will fix it.

Leaving with no deal will hasten this.

But would an unrealistic amount of money fix it? And at what point is the boundary between financially realistic and unrealistic, and how does anyone know where it is?

teestub

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#1009 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 11:04:36 am


But would an unrealistic amount of money fix it? And at what point is the boundary between financially realistic and unrealistic, and how does anyone know where it is?

 :agree:

And compared to other healthcare systems around the world it seems to be good value for money, so any other option is likely to be more expensive than the ‘untealistic’ amount of money the NHS requires.

duncan

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#1010 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 11:42:59 am

Working  for it. Knowing that there is no realistic amount of money that will fix it.


I disagree

Show me a western health service that isn't in a financial crisis. It's easy to be pessimistic about the NHS, especially when you're on the front line, but assuming present funding levels don't change substantially don't think any other model of care (e.g. an insurance-based service) would result in an improvement in service.

What will make a difference is funding the service at a similar level to other similarly rich European countries like France or Germany. UK funding (as a percentage of GDP) is 13th out of the original 15 EU members. We can and should afford more. NHS funding improved substantially under Blair/Brown from 2000 to 2009 and this was clearly noticeable both as a patient and someone who worked in hospitals. Since then it has declined (as a % of GDP) despite a growing economy, this has also been clearly noticeable as a patient. This is austerity in action.

Data from OCED, figure from KIng's Fund


jwi

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#1011 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 01:05:37 pm
Ratio of GDP might not be the most trustworthy normalisation, as Luxembourg and Ireland's GDP are much inflated as they are used as nominal headquarters by multinationals for taxdodging purposes (=lots of 'domestic' production that will never ever be gainful for any Irish or Luxembourger).

duncan

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#1012 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 02:54:06 pm
Happy to omit Ireland and Luxembourg from that data. My argument is the UK should be spending a similar proportion of GDP on healthcare as (broadly) similar countries like France and Germany.

jwi

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#1013 Re: EU Referendum
May 25, 2019, 09:24:35 pm
I'm happy to report anecdotal evidence that France's healthcare system is really quite good; better than Japan's and Sweden's in my (very) limited experience.

danm

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#1014 Re: EU Referendum
May 26, 2019, 10:42:43 am
This also assumes that populations are the same when we know they are not. Large parts of the UK population have been badly affected by austerity, which won't show up in GDP because it's an average (and the rich have been getting steadily richer). These effects will be manifested by mental and physical health problems which then will add to the required butchers bill the health service has to pay.

I witnessed a microcosm of this the other week - I needed a GP appointment for the first time in a few years, and was told it would be a 5 week wait unless I turned up and queued first thing in the morning. Lucky me, working from home, so I'm straight in there the next day.

In the waiting room, a big guy is on his phone, sounding really stressed out - his boss is angry he hasn't given any notice for not being at work, he's trying to explain that you don't get appointments in advance any more. It sounds like he might get sacked, as he has to hang up and go into see the doctor. Within a minute ALL the practice staff are rushing to the room, and the guy bursts out swearing. He's obviously snapped over something and kicked off. Things settle down, he gets seen, it's my turn next to see the GP. I sit down, look at the doc and think, fuck me its 9.10am and you've already had to use your panic button, you poor bastard. He's extremely competent, and I leave, pondering austerity and the effect of negative feedback loops.

tomtom

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#1015 Re: EU Referendum
May 26, 2019, 11:59:14 am
GP's practices seem wildly different across the country. My tuppence worth:

My previous one in Hull was dire. 2-3 week list or go to A&E.

In Manc you call that morning and are triaged by a doctor/nurse and we've nearly always got an appointment that day. Out of hours is run by a private company (based next to A&E at Manchester Royal) and thats always been really good and fast too.

Anyway - back to the EU. I am presently completely disinterested by the Tory leadership race. I think it will make f*ck all difference. A GE might - but equally might leave us in the same quagmire. With that and Trumps upcoming visit that I'd rather not know anything about - I'm quite happy avoiding news for the time being.

Teaboy

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#1016 Re: EU Referendum
May 26, 2019, 12:17:00 pm

In Manc you call that morning and are triaged by a doctor/nurse and we've nearly always got an appointment that day. Out of hours is run by a private company (based next to A&E at Manchester Royal) and thats always been really good and fast too.


I'm not sure you can say "in Manc" with that degree of certainty, my experience of Whalley Range Health centre was 5 weeks for an appointment (things might have improved but my wife works on various pathway and commissioning projects and suggests things are getting worse).

Quote

Anyway - back to the EU. I am presently completely disinterested by the Tory leadership race. I think it will make f*ck all difference. A GE might - but equally might leave us in the same quagmire.

This is the thing people seem to miss, it might not be up to us in the UK. If the EU Parliament is packed with rabble rousers like Farage they might not grant an extension, they certainly won't be renegotiating the deal. No deal would be a disaster for Europe but they've seen the way the wind is blowing and in a no deal scenario companies are favouring moving to the EU from UK and not the other way around so there are some compensations for them.

Teaboy

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#1017 Re: EU Referendum
May 26, 2019, 12:33:36 pm

There are more important things to worry about than chickens.

Chlorinated chicken is just emblematic of "being fucked over by the US in trade negotiations" and only a fraction of the story. The US is probably one place where we don't need to work on a trade agreement at the moment as it is the one major western economy we have a trade surplus with, this surplus is what will be trageted by the US in any negotiation.

There is a reason the EU hasn't got around to signing a trade agreement with the US and it's not because they have forgotten or because they don't have negotiators of the quality of Liam Fox but because the terms of TTIP are so onerous as to be unacceptable, e.g. UK govt policy being held to account by US companies and lobbyists (sovereignty anyone?).

Don't let the seriousness of any future US trade deal be defined by its least important aspect. It's like equating climate change with global warming, "hur, hur, I wouldn't mind a bit of that!"
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 12:47:33 pm by Teaboy »

teestub

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#1018 Re: EU Referendum
May 26, 2019, 02:39:55 pm


This is the thing people seem to miss, it might not be up to us in the UK. If the EU Parliament is packed with rabble rousers like Farage they might not grant an extension, they certainly won't be renegotiating the deal. No deal would be a disaster for Europe but they've seen the way the wind is blowing and in a no deal scenario companies are favouring moving to the EU from UK and not the other way around so there are some compensations for them.

Isn’t it the council (I.e. heads of state) rather than the parliament that pass the extension?


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#1020 Re: EU Referendum
May 26, 2019, 10:25:58 pm


But would an unrealistic amount of money fix it? And at what point is the boundary between financially realistic and unrealistic, and how does anyone know where it is?

 :agree:

And compared to other healthcare systems around the world it seems to be good value for money, so any other option is likely to be more expensive than the ‘untealistic’ amount of money the NHS requires.

Whatever you believe about funding more money will not make any difference  because the NHS is managed by  legions of people with absolutely no idea about front line healthcare.  Government may change, ministers may change,  but without profound  reorganisation and proper attention to social care for very elderly people it will carry on getting worse, however much money gets poured into it.

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#1021 Re: EU Referendum
May 28, 2019, 06:13:26 pm
I assume the Labour leadership have access to the same or better polling info that we plebs do. Which just goes to show that Corbyn is a blinkered ideologue, content to be in eternal opposition and so far out of touch with his members, he might as well be leading an entirely different party:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-would-labour-win-an-election-if-it-backed-remain

mrjonathanr

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#1022 Re: EU Referendum
May 28, 2019, 07:47:37 pm
Interesting that if you are  a Holocaust denier the Labour Party will mutter about ‘education’ and prevaricate for years but if you’re a Blairite who votes for an unequivocally remain party you can be expelled in a single weekend:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/labour-expels-alastair-campbell-from-party

It’s all about values, innit.

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#1023 Re: EU Referendum
May 28, 2019, 08:10:29 pm
It’s all about values, innit.

Or, lack there of...

mrjonathanr

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#1024 Re: EU Referendum
May 28, 2019, 09:16:01 pm
Antisemites good, Blairites bad.

Strikes me all manner of unsavoury bigots could have been dealt with as briskly as Campbell had the inclination so moved them.

But it didn’t. Someone is easily threatened by perceived disloyalty though - flounce out from a meeting that includes Chuka, remove one of the key players from the Blair-led years of success.

 

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