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Deadhangs & pull ups (Read 11794 times)

GazM

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Deadhangs & pull ups
July 17, 2018, 09:10:40 pm
Here's a punter question that's probably going to highlight my complete ignorance of training basics and physiology: Whats the story with pull ups on fingerboards?I never see them mentioned in training discussions.

Whenever I do deadhangs (not max hangs) on my fingerboard I always have the urge to finish a hang with a pull up. It feels totally natural to me, since climbing isn't about hanging holds it's about pulling on them. Surely pulling up on a 10mm edge is of more benefit than just hanging it?

So, would doing a pull up at the end of a deadhang be of benefit, or detrimental?  And why?


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#1 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 17, 2018, 09:37:19 pm
I've seen Tim Palmer doing a finger-board routine that involves lots of pull-ups, and it doesn't seem to have done him much harm! 

Personally, and I think there is a Beastmaker blog that also suggests it, on the rare occasions I do sets of 6x7/3s repeaters, I like to cycle from full dead-hang (i.e. almost straight arms), to full lock off, to 90deg lock, back to dead-hang, full lock off, 90deg lock.  Like you say, hanging small holds is no good if you cannot reach between them!

But, for me, I like to focus finger-board session on gaining finger strength: max hang routines with as much added weight as possible.  Being able to finish with a pull-up would suggest that I had not calibrated the max load correctly.  The hangs should be reasonably close to failure; if I could finish with a pull-up, it would indicate I should have used a greater added weight.

tomtom

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#2 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 17, 2018, 10:25:21 pm
Because they can knacker your elbows!

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#3 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 18, 2018, 08:34:56 am
Because they can knacker your elbows!
This.
Especially when doing encores (cycling through the locks as described above), full lock on any of the narrower positions ie. two-digit pockets, absolutely ruin my elbows.

Nibile

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#4 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 18, 2018, 08:42:55 am
Doing pull ups on a fingerboard is the most dangerous thing you can do in climbing.
It seems fine at the beginning, so you get stuck into it, but it's Evil.
This is mostly due to the fact that the wrist operates in a fully pronated position, that spins its tragic effects up to the elbows when you are above 90 degrees. The more you close the pull, the worse it gets. It's Medial-epicondilitis-land.
Far better to train fingers with dead hangs and pulling power with bar pull ups or on a steep board.
Last year I went back to doing fingerboard pull ups after a decade and I got medial epicondilitis after a decade.
Avoid like the plague.

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#5 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 18, 2018, 09:07:50 am
Doing pull ups on a fingerboard is the most dangerous thing you can do in climbing training.

Oldmanmatt

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#6 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 18, 2018, 09:40:56 am
Because they can knacker your elbows!

But...

I found completely the opposite.

I found repeaters agrivated my tendinitis in my brachialis radialis, to the point of distration.
Because it didn’t actually hurt to do (the flare would come later in the day), it took a while for me to narrow down to this as the cause.
The tendinitis persisted for more than 12 months, but I was too stubborn to stop Training entirely.
However, when I switched to pull ups in the varying grips, as a circuit of 3 pull ups in each (4 fingers slot 3, front 2 slot 7, middle two slot 6, back 2 slot 5, index mono slot 11, middle mono slot 11, ring mono slot 11, 45* 4 finger) and repeated 3 times. My tendinitis resolved rapidly and has not returned.
I typically did that once a week, on a Monday. When the tendinitis had faded to a bearable level, I added max hangs to my Friday session, again in each of the grips.

N=1, but hey, it worked for me.
No repeaters ever again.

GazM

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#7 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 18, 2018, 09:45:02 am
Thanks folks.  Very useful responses, as ever.  For the sake of my elbows I'll try to resist the urge to pull...

SA Chris

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#8 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 18, 2018, 05:39:58 pm
Doing pull ups on a fingerboard is the most dangerous thing you can do in climbing training.

There speaks one experienced in the art of SNAFUs

Ged

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#9 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 22, 2018, 10:01:10 pm
Another vouch for pull ups on a fingerboard completely ruining elbows. Cost me about £200 in physio and a few months off climbing.

Like others said, use the hangs for pure finger strength, then translate it to climbing specific by getting on a bouldering wall.


tim palmer

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#10 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 22, 2018, 10:48:16 pm
I always do lots of pull ups on a fingerboard, never had any problems.  For the last 7 months i have not really been able to climb so have just fingerboarded 3-4 times a week and not had a hint of tendonitis.   I am a bit confused i thought everyone was all about the one rep max pull up stuff nowadays?

T_B

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#11 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 09:29:49 am
I am a bit confused i thought everyone was all about the one rep max pull up stuff nowadays?

My wife had some coaching from Zippy and he was getting her to do pull ups to failure (with assistance once she could not longer haul b/weight).

Oldmanmatt

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#12 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 09:39:44 am
This is a reps issue isn’t it?

It’s not doing or not doing pull ups on a finger board, it’s doing excessive reps of any thing on a fingerboard.
By reps I mean repeated loading and unloading of the elbows/fingers.

Again, n=1, but, for me:

Low rep pull ups (max 3/grip with 1min rest between sets) = no problem.

Max hangs (or 1 rep max endurance) = no problem.

Repeaters (7sec on, 3 sec off/6 reps/grip) = Tendinitis

Add to that the implication from others that doing lots of pull ups on the fingerboard knackered their elbows and that Tendinitis is an overuse injury; are we back to the fingerboards are for strength training, not endurace ?

Oh, and edit:

Then, throw in those with good/unusual genetics and cast iron conective tissue to screw the discussion...

Ged

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#13 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 10:33:42 am
Hard to compare load intensity of pulls vs. hangs, but I figured the "equivalent" of doing a max hang of 7 seconds was pull ups with enough weight that I can manage 4-5.  I don't think that's excessive volume, and that screwed my elbows very quickly, whereas I can do long stints (throughout the year really) of hangs, and seems to not hurt them.

Obviously they'll be loads of variations with individuals though, and some people will never hear a peak from their elbows.  But given the misery I've been through with mine, I'd always advise to avoid the pull ups. 

Oldmanmatt

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#14 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 10:48:45 am
Well, there’s a difference for one.

I don’t use weight when doing FB pull ups or hangs.
But then, I still can’t use the small slot front two or back two.
At least, not more than one pull up.
And max hangs, I’m only going for duration.

We are probably comparing apples to oranges, aren’t we (or at least, apples to pears).

But, overall, I suspect we are seeing the disparity of individual tolerance and limits.

teestub

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#15 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 10:56:26 am

My wife had some coaching from Zippy and he was getting her to do pull ups to failure (with assistance once she could not longer haul b/weight).

This seems like a very gymnastics style of approach, where either you end up with people who can take this sort of work and make improvements, or you end up with a pile of broken people.

T_B

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#16 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 12:01:04 pm

My wife had some coaching from Zippy and he was getting her to do pull ups to failure (with assistance once she could not longer haul b/weight).

This seems like a very gymnastics style of approach, where either you end up with people who can take this sort of work and make improvements, or you end up with a pile of broken people.

Sure. I recall Michaela saying he'd had her doing the same and she got very strong. Mrs T_B was already v strong/gymnastic.

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#17 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 12:38:36 pm

Sure. I recall Michaela saying he'd had her doing the same and she got very strong. Mrs T_B was already v strong/gymnastic.

I’ve seen the vids of her campussing on the Micros!

Yes this approach seems to have worked for Michaela (I’m sure as part of a larger training plan).

So anecdotally we now have 3 strong people (Palmstong, Michaela, Mrs T_B) who have been able to take this sort of training without detriment to their elbows, and then we have a bunch of weaker people (myself included) for whom attempting to pursue this style of training has only lead to swellbows.

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#18 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 01:32:24 pm
Pull-ups on finger-edges are a bit like crimp deadhangs: both come with a potentially higher risk of injury but both are so specific to climbing they might be worth considering as part of a training programme if handled with care. Start gently, progress slowly, rest properly.

Personal experience: higher reps. (>15) pull-ups tend to hurt my elbows. I can tolerate lower reps (~5-7). Having strong'n'stable  shoulders probably helps minimise compensatory stresses on the elbows: a good shoulder stability routine should be a prerequisite.

Another way of training the same movement is to do one arm pull-downs with a lat. machine, replacing the bar with a small finger board (Crusher Orb or similar), or using weights and a pulley. Allowing the board to rotate as you pull down makes the exercise slightly less specific but reduces the stress on the elbow.


tim palmer

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#19 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 01:48:09 pm
Yeah, I do 14 sets of 8s hang into 5 pullups without dropping off with a minute inbetween on various types of hold with other longer hangs added in.   I started with no added weight, i can do it with 10kg added now.

Not sure where it falls into the terminology, i tried to mimic what you actually do on a boulder, probably stupid.  but on the bits of low level bouldering i can do now i feel significantly stronger than i did 8 months ago

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#20 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 02:01:32 pm
Still on the subject, in my experience fingerboard pull ups aren't that specifically useful, except as a test for personal reference.
I used to do tons of them ages ago, and couldn't climb sh*t.
Dropped them completely, started just bouldering on steep ground and could climb sh*t. Also, when I tested them I could do as many as when I used to do loads.
Briefly said, in my opinion they are not worth the risk.
Bear in mind that we climbers are not normal individuals: when we feel that first little niggle, we don't say "ok let's stop here", we say "ok let's see how much more I can push things".

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#21 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 02:31:08 pm
Just to get myself included in a strong list - I've had bouts of doing encores while fingerboarding and never had any elbow problems from it.

Could it be that the related elbow pain is the result of an underlying weaknesses somewhere in the chain or of form perhaps? Purely speculation.

T_B

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#22 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 02:55:44 pm
Yes. I always used to do encore versions of repeaters with no problems. I've not had any elbow problems since more-or-less sorting out my posture/shoulders years ago. Lots of elbow issues come from shoulder impingement.

That said, I've never been keen on pull ups but that's more to do with the impression that I'd become even more massive than I already am.

Nibile

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#23 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 05:21:57 pm
Repeaters are a very different thing from pull ups. The lock off angle is what does the damage, and I seriously doubt that anyone of sane mind would do locked-off repeaters.

Ged

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#24 Re: Deadhangs & pull ups
July 23, 2018, 09:47:55 pm
Up above somewhere, someone mentioned the bigly badliness of pull ups is to do with the palms facing away, and resultant stress that puts on the elbows.  Could there be an argument for using rock ring type setup, so that the palms can rotate? WOuld that reduce elbow stress?

 

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