[filipaame]

Hi all,

Wanting some advice -  I'm going for a short DWS trip in a couple of weeks to Sagres, Portugal.

I've never been DWS before but my OH has. I've been reading the Rockfax Deep Water Guide to get an idea of what to expect. Do you have any top tips for DWS? I know having spare chalk bags/shoes is good. Has anyone been to Sagres for DWS? Any comments/advice would be greatly appreciated about the area or DWS in general for a newbie.

[SA Chris]

Start low, work your way up. Avoid in anything other than flat calm seas! Choose a sunny day, read the tips and introduction in the front of the Rockfax DWS Guide.

[danm]

Liquid chalk is useful, you can take a bottle down and stash it for routes which start off a traverse line in or carry it in a pocket.

[Will Hunt]

My DWS experience has been limited to a couple of snatched hours on a few family holidays - Pembroke, Mallorca, Portugal. Thus I haven't really been with a crew and had a proper go.
From my limited experience (and this advice might not really be suitable for you if you're a fearless wad):
- never ever go DWSing alone. If a freak accident happens that puts you in the water, possibly knocked out, and there's nobody watching you, you are definitely dead. This has happened, tragically, to some experienced DWSers;
- have a look at what cold water shock is and be mindful of it. I'm not sure what the water will be like near Sagres at this time of year (post winter, might not have warmed up yet?), but I've climbed there in November and the water was gorgeous;
- always check your exit point before getting in. It might be that there is normally a pull-out line in-situ which has vanished etc. Don't just rely on what the guide has told you, go and see it for yourself.
- check the swell direction and size on a surf forecast (loads of relevant forecasts for where you're going, just be mindful that the beach that the forecast is for will not necessarily be at the same orientation as the crag you're climbing at!). Not sure what the weather is like at this time of year around there but it can get very wild.
- Look for some nice low venues with easy exits to get you started
- jumping into the water from sea level, and then doing a few bigger jumps is absolutely vital for your head. You'll feel loads better once you've seen that falling in is nice and not frigid;
- don't sweat too much if you haven't got an absolute mountain of shoes - DWS is more often on steep, juggy rock, and wet shoes doesn't actually make that much difference to performance;
- If you take a sandwich bag (or something a bit sturdier) and duct tape some thin wire around the outside (to hold it open) this makes a neat dry wipe chalk bag that you can keep topped up.
- Enjoy it. It can be a bit stressful at first, but once you're more used to it it's an incredibly liberating way to climb.

So now, some more Portugal specific beta. I climbed at Ingrina a couple of times. I was on holiday with wife, baby, and a few climbers of varying keenness and DWS was limited to a morning's/afternoon's activity when my wife didn't mind being abandoned with our daughter.
- If you forget an climbing stuff then there's nothing in Sagres - it's a surf town. You'll probably have to go to the bouldering wall in Faro: https://www.facebook.com/vertical.adr/
It's a bit of a weird place to find - it's in a sports centre, on the other side of an astro turf pitch. At least one of the blokes who staffs it is psyched and is happy to share info (though if you don't speak Portuguese then language is a problem).
- I never actually climbed at Sagres itself (what Rockfax calls Ponta Garcia I think). From what little I heard from the locals, the approach to it was awkward (some sort of sketchy high level hand line? Easiest by blow up boat?). Logistics are probably not going to make this all that easy for your first time. Do Ingrina first and then progress to Ponta Garcia later.
- Ingrina is really good. There's some lowball stuff in a cave blowhole thing that might be nice opening gambits. The wall on the right of the Main Cave area (facing in) also has some excellent lowballs and jumping in practice. Keep upping the height until you can jump in safely from the top of Ilvico. The approach to the left hand side of the main cave area (facing in) is exposed and not to be fallen off (it's not above the sea). Be very careful. The sea will probably be rougher on the Atlantic side of the main cave (below the down climb). You might find it easier downclimbing just to the left, facing out (i.e. towards the main cave), than is first apparent. We didn't get to climb on the wall next to the blowhole as the sea was too rough on that side.


From the "Best of 2017" thread:
Dromedario (6b; DWS); Ingrina. Absolutely epic. You get a decent way above the sea and then you just start firing out across this overhanging wall on titanic jugs. There's a tricky move near the top and then you do this cool rock over into an undercut on the top slab. Amazing.

[SA Chris]

Good post Will.

[Will Hunt]

Something I forgot to mention. Depending on how long your trip is and how the access to Ponta Garcia is, there might be limited DWS in the area for you to go at. If this is the case, consider taking some stuff for roped climbing. I believe there is some good sport climbing on the sea cliffs in the area which might supplement the DWS that you do. Certainly peering over the edges of the cliff around the lighthouse on the peninsula can be fairly jaw dropping.
If you decide to do any roped climbing around Sagres, you should definitely definitely get on the local climber's Facebook group and see what routes have been re-equipped. They have a big project underway at the moment to replace the metalwork with titanium kit. This is because a lot of the routes have become incredibly dangerous since first being bolted because of the corrosion of the metalwork. There are some horror stories about abseil anchors being tested and barely being up to holding any weight 

[Will Hunt]

Start low, work your way up. Avoid in anything other than flat calm seas!

Disagree with this. Very calm water has more surface tension and is more likely to hurt on impact. On the other hand, rough seas may make it hard to exit the water and/or risk smashing you against rocks. So slightly choppy water is optimal.

I'm not so sure, if you're not taking long lobs then I doubt it will make a huge difference if the sea is flat. If there is a swell it can take a couple of goes to get the hang of getting out. You want to ride the swell up to a good handhold near the peak of the swell, grab it and get your feet on quickly, then climb out of the water's reach when the swell drops away from you.

Personally, I'm not the strongest of swimmers and I've spent very little time in the sea, so it's hard to judge how choppy too choppy is without much experience. We called into Ingrina once when we possibly could have climbed but decided against it because the sea was just a little too rough for comfort. I looked at it and thought it was a goer, my mates looked at it and said that anybody who fell in was dead meat. You're very unlikely to get completely flat seas at Ingrina but it looks nice today on the surf forecast - a small westerly swell.

[dunnyg]

If the sea is too big, then the surfing is likely to be half decent so could always be a back up option.

[SA Chris]

I also don't think surface tension changes if water is flat or not?

I'd agree err on the side of caution, flatter the better, especially if you are not going far off the deck. A flat calm sea is a much friendlier environment to be in, than any roughness.

But yes, learn to surf is a good plan B.

[filipaame]

My DWS experience has been limited to a couple of snatched hours on a few family holidays - Pembroke, Mallorca, Portugal. Thus I haven't really been with a crew and had a proper go.
From my limited experience (and this advice might not really be suitable for you if you're a fearless wad):
- never ever go DWSing alone. If a freak accident happens that puts you in the water, possibly knocked out, and there's nobody watching you, you are definitely dead. This has happened, tragically, to some experienced DWSers;
- have a look at what cold water shock is and be mindful of it. I'm not sure what the water will be like near Sagres at this time of year (post winter, might not have warmed up yet?), but I've climbed there in November and the water was gorgeous;
- always check your exit point before getting in. It might be that there is normally a pull-out line in-situ which has vanished etc. Don't just rely on what the guide has told you, go and see it for yourself.
- check the swell direction and size on a surf forecast (loads of relevant forecasts for where you're going, just be mindful that the beach that the forecast is for will not necessarily be at the same orientation as the crag you're climbing at!). Not sure what the weather is like at this time of year around there but it can get very wild.
- Look for some nice low venues with easy exits to get you started
- jumping into the water from sea level, and then doing a few bigger jumps is absolutely vital for your head. You'll feel loads better once you've seen that falling in is nice and not frigid;
- don't sweat too much if you haven't got an absolute mountain of shoes - DWS is more often on steep, juggy rock, and wet shoes doesn't actually make that much difference to performance;
- If you take a sandwich bag (or something a bit sturdier) and duct tape some thin wire around the outside (to hold it open) this makes a neat dry wipe chalk bag that you can keep topped up.
- Enjoy it. It can be a bit stressful at first, but once you're more used to it it's an incredibly liberating way to climb.

So now, some more Portugal specific beta. I climbed at Ingrina a couple of times. I was on holiday with wife, baby, and a few climbers of varying keenness and DWS was limited to a morning's/afternoon's activity when my wife didn't mind being abandoned with our daughter.
- If you forget an climbing stuff then there's nothing in Sagres - it's a surf town. You'll probably have to go to the bouldering wall in Faro: https://www.facebook.com/vertical.adr/
It's a bit of a weird place to find - it's in a sports centre, on the other side of an astro turf pitch. At least one of the blokes who staffs it is psyched and is happy to share info (though if you don't speak Portuguese then language is a problem).
- I never actually climbed at Sagres itself (what Rockfax calls Ponta Garcia I think). From what little I heard from the locals, the approach to it was awkward (some sort of sketchy high level hand line? Easiest by blow up boat?). Logistics are probably not going to make this all that easy for your first time. Do Ingrina first and then progress to Ponta Garcia later.
- Ingrina is really good. There's some lowball stuff in a cave blowhole thing that might be nice opening gambits. The wall on the right of the Main Cave area (facing in) also has some excellent lowballs and jumping in practice. Keep upping the height until you can jump in safely from the top of Ilvico. The approach to the left hand side of the main cave area (facing in) is exposed and not to be fallen off (it's not above the sea). Be very careful. The sea will probably be rougher on the Atlantic side of the main cave (below the down climb). You might find it easier downclimbing just to the left, facing out (i.e. towards the main cave), than is first apparent. We didn't get to climb on the wall next to the blowhole as the sea was too rough on that side.


From the "Best of 2017" thread:
Dromedario (6b; DWS); Ingrina. Absolutely epic. You get a decent way above the sea and then you just start firing out across this overhanging wall on titanic jugs. There's a tricky move near the top and then you do this cool rock over into an undercut on the top slab. Amazing.

Thanks so much for the in depth response!
I've read the rockfax intro and guidance and looked into cold water shock -  I don't think it will be a problem, but I plan on getting accustomed to jumping/falling in by practising low and then getting higher, as you suggested. That should be a good measure of water temperature.

Incidentally, we will have pretty much all our gear with us for sport and trad because we're going back to the lakes for a bit straight after our Portugal trip. Good to know that there are other options.

Yeah surfing is on the list as I used to do it a lot as a kid, as is kayaking - that cave in benagil looks amazing!

Portuguese shouldn't be too much of an issue as I am from Madeira Just spent most (too much) of my life living in other places.
I'll take on your point of doing Ingrina first then Ponta Garcia, sounds like a better introduction logistically and mentally!

Really looking forward to it. Hope it's the first of many DWS trips.
Thanks again!

[Will Hunt]

Let us know how you get on 

[SA Chris]

If you surfed in Madeira, Portugal should be a doddle

[cha1n]

Hey Filipaame

I'm in Sagres from the 14th to the 21st of July for DWS and surfing with my girlfriend, are you out there then? I'd appreciate any tips you have if you're out prior to that or if we're out at the same time, maybe we can all climb together? It feels a bit safer having a crew to DWS with!

[filipaame]

So, it was great! Thanks for the tips about Ingrina, Will. That's where we spent the majority of our time!

I'll share some things that might be useful to others in future:

- If you can, buy an inflatable boat. We flew into Faro and there's a Decathlon like 5mins drive from the airport. We bought a fairly sturdy one for 60euros with detachable paddles, pump etc. Tom took it back with him as hand luggage (comes with a very fashionable nylon bag). The boat was super useful for getting to and from the climbing, having somewhere to keep spare kit and provided a seat for the "spotter" (read: heckler). Also provided entertainment and a way of getting around the sea caves for general exploring! I'd highly recommend taking some time to just go around the coast, you don't need to pay for a kayak trip with a guide etc, it's pretty safe and calm around there and the caves are incredible!

- Take a dry bag to keep the guide book, shoes and chalk, well, dry!

- The access to Ingrina is a bit weird/sketchy. The smiley face wall has fallen into the sea and when looking for the "holes" in the ground, as described in the guide, it can feel pretty scary as the grass and vegetation was quite built up which made it hard to see where these holes in the ground are! After a few hours (yes, hours!) of walking around, climbing down a weird slab just left of the Romeo and Juliet face, we decided to walk down to the unnamed beach that's right of Ingrina beach. It's not as aesthetically appealing as Ingrina, but we had it to ourselves and the huge pile of boulders provided good stashing places for gear.
From here, we set off on our trusty inflatable and paddled around the coastline to the main cave area.
The climbing was great, Tom was basically doing laps around the cave 

- The water is cold - I felt more comfortable jumping in after having been for a swim.

- Beliche beach is lovely - but to get to the climbing for Ponta Garcia I wouldn't recommend bringing your stuff there and paddling round to the Fossil cave/ Garcia walls - the wind can be extremely strong, as it was when we were there. Tom hired a kayak from a stand on Beliche and the lifeguard warned us about the wind that day - getting around the corner was fine but coming back, the wind was against you and it was hard work. Not impossible, but something to bear in mind. You're better off walking from the car park at Beliche.

Hope that's helpful. That part of Portugal is beautiful, food is great and the people are ace. Though I am very biased.