[ghisino]

hi,

question especially for those involved in bolting new crags.

i stumbled upon a new, good looking crag while having a stroll next door.

looks 99% finished although there are still some fixed lines (the ropes look brand new, less than one season).

the crag isn't published yet (and may never be, there are a few unpublished crags in this area in the french alps)

having said that i left a small paper note offering my help for gardening/loose rocks/ etc at the crag, i wonder what is the expected behaviour in a case like this.
the instict was, obviously, to run to the car, grab climbing gear and minitrax the shit out of the fixed lines, but i guessed it may piss people off if they notice!

should i try to make some kind of investigation to find out who's bolting?

or should i go climb with selected climbing partners and in case i get caught simply tell that i've been curious about the noticeable fixed lines???

[jwi]

Is it in the part of the French alps where they'd keeping the crag secret so that mr guidebook-writer (R...) will not come and manufacture a 7c, a 7c+ and an 8a?

I think that a bona fide attempt to find out who's working on it would be much appreciated, at least if it doesn't look finished.

[ghisino]

no rockfax issues here that i know of. i'm in haute-savoie.

I know of occasional disagreements between (local) guidebook writers, guidebook writers and bolters, or among bolters at the same crag.

and i know at least one case of a "fake secret crag" that everyone knows about, but there is no official topo of. In that case the bolter says he will not publish "so that it will get polished at a lower pace"

[Sasquatch]

So interesting to get a different perspective on the world. 

My take:
1. They probably don't own the rock, therefore they have no legal right to keep you off of it.
2. Go climb and enjoy the crag that you were fortunate enough to discover, if you happen to see one of the developers, then be thankful and gracious for the work they've done and offer to buy them a drink or dinner. 
2. If they are assholes, then regardless of what you do they'll still be assholes. So tell them to F^&* off.
3. If you are courteous, and they respond like an asshole, see above.

I wouldn't advertise the new crag in anyway unless the developer says its ok, or they're an asshat and keeping it quiet for purely selfish reasons. 

Caveat - I've lived in a mostly undeveloped part of the world (climbing wise) for over 20 years, and there really hasn't ever been anyone around who could steal one of my projects, so I have a bit of a skewed view...

[jwi]

no rockfax issues here that i know of. i'm in haute-savoie.

Nothing to do with rockfax, it is the local guidebook writer that has the tendecy to manufacture routes so that there is one of every grade in his prefered gradespan.

Anyway, as long as article 1384 paragraph 1 in the civil law is not reformed, I suspect most route development in France is going to be secret or semi-secret following the verdict after the accident with loose rock in Vingrau where ffme was ordered to pay €1.2 m. (As far as I understand, a new law that would absolve the land-owner or climbing organisation responsible for the crag has passed the senate and is under parliamentary review.)

[ghisino]

afaik, that law is sadly stalled due to insurance companies lobbying hard against it

[ghisino]

   Generally Canada has a conflict-avoidance culture. I can imagine French route developers might think and behave differently!

OT, two amusing anecdotes:

Developer spots a nice chunk of rock and wants to go the bureaucratic way involving landowners and the local alpine club. He gets a polite but firm "no".
He goes on to bolt anyways, makes a topo, and all his names are explicitly insulting towards people involved in his failed attempt to get an official approval. Names sounding like local asshole club
his bolts get chopped off, and he goes on to moan on national climbing media talking of vandals and bolt-hanger thieves!!!


Back when the jardin des suisses in verdon was being bolted by several developers in a row.
Developer A wants to chop off the bolts of developer B's new route. But meanwhile developer C has bolted a new line next to it. A raps off the top of the cliff, and chops all the bolts of the wrong route from the wrong person!!!



 

[tomtom]

Crikey! that sounds crazy. Its almost enough to make someone join UKC!!