[Adam Lincoln]

Adam, it's funny you should mention that. Someone mentioned to me last week that someone had moved some of your perma-draws onto a route next door at Kilnsey. Not sure if that's true or not or if your post is related.

I was up there on Sunday and the old Metolius draws above the Hardy Annual belay seemed to be in the same places as before but there were some additional DMM draws on other previously unused bolts.

A mixture of mine and dunnings at mo

[jwi]

Having experienced the rope unclip itself from quickdraws twice, I get very uncomfortable with this and now use a draw with locking carabiners at both ends here. Edelrid’s pure slider allows high or sketchy first bolts to be stick-clipped with a locker. The pongoose clipstick can unclip sliders, not sure about other brands.

This has happen to me three times, once on a multi pitch in Lofoten and twice in Gorge du Tarn. I've several time thought that I'd get the Edelrid biners but I mostly double clip crucial clips (looks ugly when I leave project draws in, but I suspect sliders would be even less popular).

[highrepute]

relying on one snapgate crab at the top while the rope goes back and forth while stripping is one. Top roping on a single snapgate or quickdraw is another

Neither of these should ever need to be the case.

[Will Hunt]

Not even when you clip a single in situ snapgate (often equalised between two bolts) and lower off, cleaning as you go?
The chance of a fuck up are miniscule, but with thousands of people sport climbing every day around the world I'm surprised there aren't more accidents.

[bigironhorse]

Not even when you clip a single in situ snapgate (often equalised between two bolts) and lower off, cleaning as you go?
The chance of a fuck up are miniscule, but with thousands of people sport climbing every day around the world I'm surprised there aren't more accidents.

They're usually steel, much deeper than a standard snapgate and have a smaller and more powerfully sprung gate though. But yeah, probably not as good as an equalised ring.

[highrepute]

Not even when you clip a single in situ snapgate (often equalised between two bolts) and lower off, cleaning as you go?
The chance of a fuck up are miniscule, but with thousands of people sport climbing every day around the world I'm surprised there aren't more accidents.

They're usually steel, much deeper than a standard snapgate and have a smaller and more powerfully sprung gate though. But yeah, probably not as good as an equalised ring.

As in the lower-offs at Malham, on consenting for example? Never thought about them like that.

[danm]

[/quote]

I mostly double clip crucial clips
[/quote]

This can be a bad idea. On a standard hanger you can get a leverage effect causing the outer krab at the bolt end to get bent, causing it to snap.

[Will Hunt]

I mostly double clip crucial clips

This can be a bad idea. On a standard hanger you can get a leverage effect causing the outer krab at the bolt end to get bent, causing it to snap.

I had a feeling there would be something that made this a bad idea. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

[spidermonkey09]

If one was concerned about a crucial clip and wanted some security for peace of mind, would it not be easier and safer to use a nice shiny screwgate? You could even have one on both ends of the draw for total peace of mind. Obviously not ideal in extremis mid crux, but would work fine if at a semi rest.

Also interesting point regarding the lower offs at Malham. I've never thought about it too much. Maybe thats for the best?!

[Will Hunt]

Obviously not ideal in extremis mid crux

That's the problem though innit. If you're on a redpoint the chances of the crucial clip being right next to the rest are probably fairly small.
I know this discussion will seem silly to many, but sport climbing is the only discipline of climbing where you're taking falls regularly that would be fatal if the rope/clips/whatever fail. Trad climbing will have a much greater failure rate but a much lower rate of falling off. Even if the chances of system failure on sport are very low, across a lifetime's worth of climbing your number might well come up at some point.

[jwi]

I mostly double clip crucial clips

This can be a bad idea. On a standard hanger you can get a leverage effect causing the outer krab at the bolt end to get bent, causing it to snap.

Obviously. I don't arrange the crabs so this can happen. (This leverage effect causing the outer krab to snap was te cause of a farily bad ground fall in Gorge du Tarn a few years back btw.)

Mostly I attach the lower sling directly in the bolt (sling girth hitched directly on the bolt) or clip in both slings with the same krab.