[Will Hunt]

I'm a complete sport climbing noob (don't worry, I'm not going to start an @sportclimbingnoobs Instagram account). I've been enjoying some lime lately and have mainly been doing the short, bouldery challenges (stuff like A Power of Good, Muted Mackerel, WYSIWYG, Spent Youth). I feel like I've learned lots already about tactics - I used to just gung ho up things on onsight attempts, get knackered, and not be fussed about working out sequences and then redpointing. I've not got stuck into a proper siege yet, and to be honest, I'm not sure I want to. I'd rather just gain a bit of extra fitness by ticking my way through the vast Pantheon of sport routes that I've yet to do.

My problem is that I am still quite a big softie when it comes to falling off, so spicy things like Frankie and Biological Need are very much off the list. I am also lacking in fitness though this is something I would like to gain more of - so the pumpier 7cs are probably a write off for now but could be good for later.

Can anyone recommend good routes at a variety of crags, not just M&K though they are by no means off limits, for me to enjoy? Suggestions at 7b+ particularly welcome since I think most of the ones already on the list are viewed as being quite stiff.

So far I'm thinking:

Far Country, 7b
Hoodoo Guru, 7b
Cruisin' for a Bruisin', 7b
Trowgerbirge Wall, 7b (what's this like?)
Haslam, 7b+ (I think 7b if you utilise the obvious rest just to the left?)
Space Race, 7b+ (no idea what this is like but it's the right grade and I love the name. What's it like?)
50 for 5, 7b+
Illywhacker, 7b+
Petulant Frenzy, 7b+/c (what's this like? Cruxy? Sustained?)
Comedy 7c (I've tried this before and should be able to do it if I can recover reasonably well in the mid-height "rest")

God, I can't wait to try these routes 

[spidermonkey09]

Taking the Space at Malham is a brilliant 7b that finishes up Space Race. The clips are slightly spaced but only needs a long sling or two when you clipstick up.

Dogpoint at Gordale also looks excellent, yet to have a look but my housemate is on it so seen a fair bit!

Sticky Wicket at Kilnsey- very good and I'm convinced this is 7b+.

50 for 5 is about 7a+ to a desperate boulder problem finish.

Tremelo is a good 7c which is reputedly low in the grade and well bolted although I am yet to tick it so cannot confirm!

Another edit as I remember them: Mule Variations is a nice 7b at Malham, worth a star or two. Apologies for the big three centric list!

[Will Hunt]

Tremelo is a good 7c which is reputedly low in the grade and well bolted although I am yet to tick it so cannot confirm!

I guess New Dawn would be the 7c to try at Malham wouldn't it? Or does it not fit the bill? To be honest, I'm only likely to bother trying a 7c with any conviction when I've got some 7b+s under my belt (still haven't done one!).

[spidermonkey09]

Thats the conclusion my housemate Steve also reached; its meant to be pretty solid at the grade I think but is obviously and undeniably classic, which I feel like makes a big difference to motivation if you're putting a lot of time into something. You obviously have 'the runout' to contend with on New Dawn but I think this is an integral part of the route. Steve has taken the whip several times working it and I think he's over the fear now. I haven't been on it as I'm saving it for a highly speculative flash go when I get back from Ceuse!

Dominatrix is absolutely brilliant by the way, and classic. Spanish style climbing; 6b+ into a long V3/4, 6c to a good rest below the roof, V3 heartbreaker boulder problem to the chains.

[andy popp]

I would have thought Obsession would suit you pretty well Will.

[dunnyg]

Have you got a clipstick will?

[Will Hunt]

Yeah, I thought I'd better look the part so I bought a clipstick and I'm also wearing some of those primary coloured trousers. Not as garish as Big Dave's Mammut technical fabric shorts though.
The clipstick is the talk of the crag 'cos it's one of the new green ones which doesn't break after its first outing. Everyone wants a look. I feel like Ondra.

[Paul B]

Hang on, aren't you helping out with a guidebook for these areas? 

There's a big difference IMO between fall potential on an OS and fall potential on something you've worked. On the latter you've got a much better appreciation of what's to come and if you stop and think about it, there are very few scenarios on the routes you've listed that are anything other than a bit airy. Going bolt-to-bolt you can quickly work things out and not have to worry about elbows near ears territory.

Why is Biological Needs spicy? It's never really featured on my radar as being one of the Big K routes with a reputation.

Sticky Wicket at Kilnsey- very good and I'm convinced this is 7b+.

Fatty Gee pulled the big hold off at the top of the groove last year making it a touch harder. If it's 7b+ then what's 50 for 5  (some things have to be top of the grade boundary)?

[spidermonkey09]

Fatty Gee pulled the big hold off at the top of the groove last year making it a touch harder. If it's 7b+ then what's 50 for 5  (some things have to be top of the grade boundary)?

I know, I know...it probably is just a hard one! Won't stop me moaning about it though...

[Teaboy]

I'm with spidermonkey, Sticky Wicket is 7b+ (Always was but especially so now) and if that messes the grade of 50 for 5 then make that 7c. If it helps you can downgrade the Ashes.

In reply to the original post, just get in any 3 star route at the grade and stick clip your way up it. You boulder 7b and up so its not like you need to worry much.

[moose]

I did Sticky repeatedly last year (as I was getting fit by working the link into the Ashes) and it still felt stiff 7b to me.  I know a big hold was pulled off a couple of years ago, not sure if anything else vital has since - a friend was working it most of last season so I suspect I would have noticed.  The effect of any shed hold in the groove, well before the crux starts, is possibly off-set by the new blocky sidepull (introduced by Seb's misbegotten creation of that shit link up route) you can now use to gain the holds where the peg used to be.

YMMV but I think Trowerbridge Wall is desperate; I failed to get up it on a day I got a 7c route there 2nd go!

Metal Guru isn't a classic on the level of Dominatrix (best 7c at Kilnsey imho) or Biological Need but it is a nice steady introduction to 7c - hard bit, hands-off rest, then about 7a to the finish. 

At Malham, New Dawn, Space Race, and Obsession are obviously classics. Not sure if Tremelo is considered soft now, after the big rest block fell off - ask someone who has done it recently.  Serious Young Toads on the upper tier is worth considering - very sustained crimping.

[Teaboy]

Serious young toads is getting increasingly difficult (it was already hard). Something big came off the top making that more sustained and since then the little (chipped?) crimp in the middle has fallen off which seems pretty crucial.

[Alex-the-Alex]

I am totally unqualified to talk about sport climbing or those grades. But I spent three of my best and most memorable days on bolts working out Lost in Thought, Lost in Time with Jonny a few years ago. Like the name, its actually two climbs with a big old repo-toto foot ledge half way. The bottom half is a 3* 7a in its own right, then the top groove is mega mega good. I think you might like it  .  Unfortunately jonny surprised himself by clipping the chains on the third time there an I never got back to finish it. I can still hear him now... "What just happened..!? What just happened!!"

[TobyD]

Sticky Wicket is 7b+

No, it isn't.

Will, everyone, with a very few exceptions for the truly mazed, is scared of falling, big run outs and lots of space beneath their feet. Embracing that feeling and still pulling down like f*** is what climbing is all about surely? Not just trying to avoid it. I'm not talking about really dangerous things just taking or being willing to take safe falls. Learn to (almost) love them!

[moose]

For a slightly more esoteric day out, try Loup Scar.  I really enjoyed Slap Happy (7a+) and Guided Muscle (7b); would be keen to re-visit to finish off Central Crack, if you fancy; though, next time I will bring wellies.

[Andy F]

Will.
May I suggest some Hardcore Ecstasy or a Pursuit of Excellence at Trow Gill. 7b+ and 7b respectively, both very good.
Eating up the rather underrated Chocolate Logger 7c at Malham is worth snacking on.

[Will Hunt]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

Will, everyone, with a very few exceptions for the truly mazed, is scared of falling, big run outs and lots of space beneath their feet. Embracing that feeling and still pulling down like f*** is what climbing is all about surely? Not just trying to avoid it. I'm not talking about really dangerous things just taking or being willing to take safe falls. Learn to (almost) love them!

One man's slump onto the bolt is another's big whip. I'll get there hopefully, but this is a progression. I fully expect that taking bigger falls is a learned skill which one can get better at - much in the same way that lobbing off onto a stack of mats is something which some people are scared of and others have grown accustomed to.

[jwi]

One man's slump onto the bolt is another's big whip. I'll get there hopefully, but this is a progression. I fully expect that taking bigger falls is a learned skill which one can get better at - much in the same way that lobbing off onto a stack of mats is something which some people are scared of and others have grown accustomed to.

I find that taking falls and not getting injured help, while taking falls and getting injured doesn't help. Getting used to dynamic belays (= much less risk of injury) is easier if the distance to the bolt is short. (I.e. I approve of baby steps. For fall training, make sure the routes are hard enough that you actually fall trying upward movement, and not so easy that you are always in 100% control and can choose when to jump off.)

[highrepute]

Being scared above bolts and of jumping off above bolts is perfectly normal. As rule I will always take at least one fall per session to keep my eye in. At Malham this is always from the belay of consenting at the end of one of my warm-up laps, despite this it never really stops being scary - it's something about deliberately jumping off. I find going bolt-to-bolt first time up a potential project particularly scary - stepping into the unknown (stones), init. I would encourage less use of clip-sticks when projecting, perhaps allowable for the first time up but once you know you can get between the bolts leave the stick behind and take a fall or two - you'll be a better climber for it.

As jwi says - getting a good dynamic catch is important, belayer should be leaving the ground.

Once you get really into an onsight/redpoint then the fear of falling should disappear (outweighed by the desire to send) - it's a great feeling getting into this zone.

Sticky wicket must have got harder to be considered 7b+. Save yourself some pain and don't try 50 for 5 until you're mentally prepared for repeatedly failing on that last move.

[Muenchener]

actually fall trying upward movement

This. I find voluntarily jumping off 6a's at the wall scary & only marginally useful, whereas I always feel much better after a real fall.

[Will Hunt]

I absolutely agree with you about deliberate falling being scarier. When I'm trying hard the fear is much less likely to kick in because I'm completely focussed on the climbing.

[andy popp]

I don't think I've ever taken a deliberate fall. I always found the idea petrifying.

[Bonjoy]

I’d echo what others have said about fear of falling being something that never particularly goes away. I’ve tried deliberate jump practice in the past but haven’t found it diminishes the fear, for me it maybe even makes things worse as it reinforces an association between fear sensations (prior to jumping) and falls. In practice though I rarely find actual falls on redpoint scary, because either I’m familiar enough with the climbing to predict when I’m going to fall (so fear of the unknown is diminished) or less often a fall comes totally out of the blue and you have no time for a fear reaction. By the time the commoner of these falls occur my brain is typically too overwhelmed with other processing and sensations to have much room for fear. In contrast to deliberate falls these real falls weaken the fear/fall mental linkage. So long as your belayer is decent, the length (within the bounds of typical UK bolt spacing) of these falls doesn't make much difference. If you’re new to sport climbing it probably makes sense to avoid falling into common bad habits which tend to reinforce the fear, such as over reliance on clip sticks and picking routes based on bolt spacing – in most cases runouts on sport routes are on easier bits of the route i.e. the bit you are least likely to fall off, especially once the move is worked.
Unsolicited advice aside, I’d agree with most of the route suggestions made, including Andy F’s suggestion of Chocolate Logger which I thought was well underrated. Other ones not suggested – Bongo Fury is a good 7b for a boulderer and Visitation is excellent.

[jwi]

Another point: For climbers with a bouldering background or generally on the strong side of the strength-endurance spectrum, increased endurance usually works wonders for the lead head. A part of the fear comes from the lack of control experienced when it is unclear exactly at what moment you'll get box pumped and unable to continue, unable to hold on to a draw you grab, or unable to downclimb out of trouble.

(For people on the opposite end of the strength-endurance spectrum I've seen the reverse: an increased boulder grade compared to continuous grade improves the head, for the same reason: a bigger safety margin going bolt to bolt).

[jwi]

Oh and another thing. On sport routes with absolutely massive runouts (Triay, Clement and Edlinger: I'm looking at you) my seven and a half meter long stickclip doesn't always reach bolt to bolt. I've found that it helps to work the runouts by climbing the first bit to a few metre above the bolt and jumping off, in a kind of a yo-yo style so that I can climb the first bit efficently before the quest starts.

This technique might not be directly applicable right now.

[TobyD]

Thanks all, I feared after I posted that my comment might have been misinterpreted. Wholly agree that falling is very different psychologically from jumping and falls on RP are less likely to be scary. I sometimes try routes at the wall way too hard for me to force myself to fall trying to slap between holds if I am feeling nervous on a rope, which is often. Best of luck Will, see you out there!

[thekettle]

I'd second Obsession (top of the grade), Space Race and Taking the Space as Malham recommendations, if you're not keen on long falls New Dawn, Tremelo and 50 for 5 might be a bit intimidating, although they are 'friendly' lobs.
At Chapel Head Scar Wargames 7b/+, Phantom Zone 7b+/c and Tricky Pricky Ears 7b should fit the bill.
Plus Countach 7b at nearby Millside Scar for an esoteric good'un.

[Will Hunt]

Thanks for all the suggestions here and in various PMs. Had a day at Malham today and dogged up Space Race. I certainly learned a valuable lesson in properly inspecting the top section of things. Had a quick look at all the moves on dog and then on the redpoint go I fell off slapping into the finishing hold after doing that last bit sub optimally. It felt like a long fall and not at all scary since I was trying so hard up to the moment of the fall. What a great route!

[Andy F]

You should have had another go, I'm sure you'd have done it. It's a steep learning curve, the art of redpointing is one which takes time and effort.

On the massive plus side, you took your rests well, fought hard and went for it when it counted.

[TobyD]

Thanks for all the suggestions here and in various PMs. Had a day at Malham today and dogged up Space Race. I certainly learned a valuable lesson in properly inspecting the top section of things. Had a quick look at all the moves on dog and then on the redpoint go I fell off slapping into the finishing hold after doing that last bit sub optimally. It felt like a long fall and not at all scary since I was trying so hard up to the moment of the fall. What a great route!

A fine effort Will, you're not very much of a wuss if you took that lob ok. Funnily enough, that's exactly where I fell off when I tried to onsight it. You'll get it fine when you have another crack. Great route isn't it? 

[cheque]

It felt like a long fall and not at all scary since I was trying so hard up to the moment of the fall. What a great route!

Effort Will. As I’ve said on here before I feel more satisfied driving home when I’ve fallen off having had an honest fight with a route (redpoint or onsight) than I do if I’ve managed to redpoint something without taking a real fall off it, ie. working it on toprope or with a clipstick.

As I’ve also said before, I find jumping off useful in getting used to falling too. It removes the fear that makes me climb stiffly and timidly otherwise, like a reminder that it’s OK and it’s the thinking that you’re going to fall that’s the scary bit, not the fall itself. My subconscious forgets that very easily and jumping off is the most efficient way to remind it.

Now if everyone could stop posting in these threads that make me miss climbing that would be great. 

[TobyD]

It felt like a long fall and not at all scary since I was trying so hard up to the moment of the fall. What a great route!

Effort Will. As I’ve said on here before I feel more satisfied driving home when I’ve fallen off having had an honest fight with a route (redpoint or onsight) than I do if I’ve managed to redpoint something without taking a real fall off it, ie. working it on toprope or with a clipstick.

As I’ve also said before, I find jumping off useful in getting used to falling too. It removes the fear that makes me climb stiffly and timidly otherwise, like a reminder that it’s OK and it’s the thinking that you’re going to fall that’s the scary bit, not the fall itself. My subconscious forgets that very easily and jumping off is the most efficient way to remind it.

Now if everyone could stop posting in these threads that make me miss climbing that would be great. 

You'll get back to it Mike, with a mutha flipping big bag of psyche!

[SA Chris]

Yep, you'll bounce back (sorry!).

[Fiend]

Western Front at Almscliff? Safe enough to be sport, and soft for 7b I hear....

[Will Hunt]

Lololololol kuntttt lolololol
 

[Will Hunt]

In case anyone is arsed, I ticked off the first of the list tonight - Cruisin at Yew Cogar. I tried it over the weekend and ballsed up my first redpoint go after the crux by rushing and not placing a foot before doing the move up and left to the undercut flake thing near the top. 2nd redpoint go that day was doomed from the off as the sun was about to hit the wall and I was rushing again - didn't even manage the crux. Sweaty.
Much nicer conditions tonight. Dogged up to put the draws in and then belayed Rob and then redpointed. Felt a bit wobbly although as I pulled through the crux I knew it was going to go. Overgripped the top and crept up using every intermediate going.
Now the interesting bit. I belayed Rob on it for a bit and then decided to have another go on lead (there's not much else at the crag for the humble punter). This time it was a complete breeze - a combination of being very relaxed, a bit more warmed up, and using a completely different sequence on the crux which Rob had just tried. There is just so much to learn about redpointing!

[Andy F]

Well done Will. Isn't sport climbing easy when you do it right? Time for you to get on something hard, 7b+ is clearly too easy for you 💪