[danm]

We're all sick of the politics as well  - please vote for option A, get this done and dusted and we can all carry on with doing the useful stuff.

A quick quiz for our readers:

1) Who specified and helped design the original DMM eco-bolt, using them to secure access to some of the finest limestone climbing in N.Wales (and incidentally kickstarting the development of modern climbing anchors)?
2) Who has loaned money to several independent guidebook producers?
3) Who has supported bolt funds country wide with training, equipment and publicity?

For those with a short memory, the answer to all of the above is a 3 letter acronym beginning with B.

[teestub]

Whitestones - you could almost laugh (although it isn't funny) at the 'first world problemness' of it. What - the boulder venue with a public right of way right past it? Hardly difficult to arrange 'access' compared to, say, the local access group near where I used to live arranging vehicle access to the Ghost River Valley, including engineering a new road bridge and digging out new roads every few winters.
It's more about managing inconsiderate behavior than managing difficult access in the UK (NI excepted..)

GB is good short for if you want to say UK but not include NI.

Whitehouses? if it proved anything it's that having a footpath makes fuck all difference to what the landowners think about climbers using their land. This does nothins to support your point.

Sounds amazing to have the opportunity to work with landowners in such a way to completely change their land just so you can drive your SUV to take part in your 1st world hobby.

[spidermonkey09]

We're all sick of the politics as well  - please vote for option A, get this done and dusted and we can all carry on with doing the useful stuff.

A quick quiz for our readers:

1) Who specified and helped design the original DMM eco-bolt, using them to secure access to some of the finest limestone climbing in N.Wales (and incidentally kickstarting the development of modern climbing anchors)?
2) Who has loaned money to several independent guidebook producers?
3) Who has supported bolt funds country wide with training, equipment and publicity?

For those with a short memory, the answer to all of the above is a 3 letter acronym beginning with B.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

 

We're all sick of the politics as well  - please vote for option A, get this done and dusted and we can all carry on with doing the useful stuff.

A quick quiz for our readers:

1) Who specified and helped design the original DMM eco-bolt, using them to secure access to some of the finest limestone climbing in N.Wales (and incidentally kickstarting the development of modern climbing anchors)?
2) Who has loaned money to several independent guidebook producers?
3) Who has supported bolt funds country wide with training, equipment and publicity?

For those with a short memory, the answer to all of the above is a 3 letter acronym beginning with B.

 

  that  with that.

[Will Hunt]

Whitestones - you could almost laugh (although it isn't funny) at the 'first world problemness' of it. What - the boulder venue with a public right of way right past it? Hardly difficult to arrange 'access' compared to, say, the local access group near where I used to live arranging vehicle access to the Ghost River Valley, including engineering a new road bridge and digging out new roads every few winters.

To be honest, that Canadian example sounds like a piece of piss. If you've raised the money and employed the contractors it's simply a case of carrying out achievable engineering tasks. Whitehouses, Foredale, Blue (to a lesser extent) - all cases where the landowner has the right to ban or destroy climbing and no amount of cajoling will persuade them otherwise.

[Oldmanmatt]

Ok.

How does this contribute to the debate?

Some people don’t care- got it.
Some people don’t need the BMC- got it.
They don’t do this in America- got it.
(But, seriously? WTF is wrong with people? The USA is a federalised continent of >300M souls, huge tracts of uninhabited land, a totally different political system and made up of highly autonomous states (way more so than our counties), some of those states could swallow our entire nation several times over and at least one has a larger economy than ours.
You’d have to compare the entirety of East and West Europe to be comparable (ish) and you’d still be trying to match Apples with Bananas.
And if you did, it would look similar in structure (local/state organisations and a lose bloc over-view group)).

Plenty of counter arguments and examples of what the BMC has achieved- got it.

Is it fair to summarise thus:

A/ Some people are “alright Jack” and don’t care?
B/ Some people want the best for as many as possible?

Because that’s how this argument comes across.

If that’s not what you mean, can you elaborate?

[Johnny Brown]

You only have to spend some time going climbing where extensive rights of way don't exist to appreciate the difference.

I've been to Spain, yes, it was an eye-opener. The ex-pat I spoke to said the local groups achieved little, and they desperately needed a body like the BMC with national clout.

[SamT]

We're lucky in the UK to have ancient access rights to large parts of the countryside.

This is bollocks Pete. We do have an network of footpaths, which are in places ancient. A right of way sadly has nothing to do with a right to climb.

The CRoW Act (2001) defined and mapped 'open country' and gave us a right to access it. This included most mountain and moorland and big stretches of the coast. The right of access is not restricted to walking and allows a list of 'permitted activities' which - crucially - includes rock climbing. This inclusion was entirely and solely as a result of the BMC's existence and lobbying.

As a counter example, look at caving. Thanks to the BCA's inaction caving is not a permitted activity under CRoW. On access land cavers can walk to the entrance to the cave but need the landowners permission to proceed underground.

(Little known fact - Bob Pettigrew voted against the BMC's work on the CRoW act too).

It's not bollocks at all JB. While a right to access isn't a right to climb, it's a massively advantageous first step (literally) in the act of going climbing to be able to walk along legally-protected rights of way to or near to a crag without having to trespass across land whose owner doesn't want you there. You only have to spend some time going climbing where extensive rights of way don't exist to appreciate the difference. 

Whitestones - you could almost laugh (although it isn't funny) at the 'first world problemness' of it. What - the boulder venue with a public right of way right past it? Hardly difficult to arrange 'access' compared to, say, the local access group near where I used to live arranging vehicle access to the Ghost River Valley, including engineering a new road bridge and digging out new roads every few winters.
It's more about managing inconsiderate behavior than managing difficult access in the UK (NI excepted..)

As a caver its funny to see the parallels going on at the moment. The British Caving Association dropped a right bollock a few years ago and failed to lobby for caving to be included in the CRoW act.  The politics and machinations that have ensued since make the current BMC issues look like a infant school playground argument about who's turn it is to go in goal.  There is a similar small entrenched contingent that are Anti CRoW who have been causing no end of trouble and are not acting in line with the desires of the vast majority of the membership. All the voting/politics seems to be out of the way, and the future is starting to look bright (after about 15 years!!)

As with BCA, the vote just needs to happen, happen quickly and definitively, that way, it can all be put behind and people can just crack on with all the good stuff.

[petejh]

You only have to spend some time going climbing where extensive rights of way don't exist to appreciate the difference.

I've been to Spain, yes, it was an eye-opener. The ex-pat I spoke to said the local groups achieved little, and they desperately needed a body like the BMC with national clout.

You can have an access group with ‘national clout’
 without having ‘a body like the BMC’ (face off crimewatch).

I don’t agree with the logic used by many (Offwidth primary suspect) that to have an access group with clout = ‘you need the BMC’.

[Will Hunt]

So Bob Pettigrew and some cavers are or were against the CRoW Act. Can anyone explain why? I can't think why any climber or caver would want to be against these things?

With caving, provided you have access to the entrance and exit, is there anything that landowners can actually do to police who goes under their land?

[petejh]

DanM - is that true? I thought Fred Hall ‘invented’ the eco bolt?
Whatever the case, crediting ‘the BMC’ with ‘kickstarting the development of modern climbing anchors’ is a grand claim - are we supposed to believe resin bolts wouldn't have happened ‘without the BMC’? Of course not. That would be like suggesting modern guidebooks wouldn’t have happened without Cockfax.

[Johnny Brown]

Sam will no doubt have a better idea but I think there is simply resistance to change from the old caving guard. Then there are safety and conservation concerns over 'opening the flood gates' (farmers and moor owners played this card prior to CRoW too). A lot of caves have locked gates on them and access is controlled by the local club who have negotiated with the landowner.

I was told Bob believed CRoW would reduce rights he believed we already had. No one else seems to have shared his interpretation of these rights mind, and I'm not aware of any examples where access has been lost due to CRoW.

That would be like suggesting modern guidebooks wouldn’t have happened without Cockfax

Interesting argument! Modern music would have happened without The Beatles. Does that invalidate their contribution?

[petejh]

I’m more of a stones man.

[SamT]

Its complicated.  Issues are wrapped up in legislation, old access agreements being displaced, liability concerns, gates and control (relatively, there are very few caves with gates on, compared to those without).

I'm at a loss as to why folks wouldn't want it.
3 years ago, members voted overwhelmingly to get BCA to lobby the powers that be to get caving added to the list of activities allowed on CRoW land. 

There then followed a whole bunch of issues with the BCA constitution, raised by the anti mob, which resulted in another vote (overwhelmingly won again) to get the constitution amended to allow BCA to again. So 5 years later, the CRoW team an only truly begin the task of trying to get the act amended.

I think climbers really do have it very easy in the UK.  It does come across as a bit of a first world problem when a tiny group of folks are prevented from doing a few problems on a small bunch of rocks. Just the sheer number of venues in the UK is incredible when you stand back and look at it.

But then this isnt really just what the BMC vote is all about is it.

[danm]

DanM - is that true? I thought Fred Hall ‘invented’ the eco bolt?
Whatever the case, crediting ‘the BMC’ with ‘kickstarting the development of modern climbing anchors’ is a grand claim - are we supposed to believe resin bolts wouldn't have happened ‘without the BMC’? Of course not. That would be like suggesting modern guidebooks wouldn’t have happened without Cockfax.

The BMC Technical Committee produced the original design brief and spec's for the eco-bolt, Fred used his metal bashing knowledge to manufacture it, so it was a joint effort. I'm pretty sure it was the first commercially produced resin anchor for climbing, it certainly put certified anchors of this type on the map, before that it was home made staples. Kickstarting seems a fair term given all that.

Fair to say we've been more than just an access group for some time, that work dates back to 1992 I think. How did you do with the rest of the quiz?

[petejh]

I can’t remember the rest of it. Hang on.. let me see.. (on my phone on ferry to Ireland to develop more new routes with bolts paid for by sales of NW lime..)..

2&3 - irrelevant to the point I’m making.
(Which is: ‘you don’t need the bmc to have an effective access group. As evidenced elsewhere’.)

This debate always descends into people defensively pointing out ‘the bmc do/have done this’.  Which is nothing to do with the point being made.

Slàinte

[kelvin]

As with BCA, the vote just needs to happen, happen quickly and definitively, that way, it can all be put behind and people can just crack on with all the good stuff.

Said David Cameron about a referendum once...

[joel182]

2&3 - irrelevant to the point I’m making.
(Which is: ‘you don’t need the bmc to have an effective access group. As evidenced elsewhere’.)

This debate always descends into people defensively pointing out ‘the bmc do/have done this’.  Which is nothing to do with the point being made.

Slàinte

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. We don't need the BMC, we just need some other organisation that does the same stuff as the BMC?

[shark]

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. We don't need the BMC, we just need some other organisation that does the same stuff as the BMC?

Just to pick up on that this is generally how the BMC has developed - by taking on responsibility for things that others lack the resources or inclination to take on themselves and has morphed into some sort of hydra.

There are a few things it has let go of along the way. NICAS was originally a BMC thing as I understand it (JR may correct me) and the Climbing Wall committee was discontinued which seemed redundant with the existence of the Association of British Climbing Walls. There was also some split with Mountain Training BITD. Looks like Competition Climbing will become a subsidiary governing body as recommended by the ORG

[Offwidth]

..and has morphed into some sort of hydra.

More like Shield in cultural reference terms ... fighting the good fight but misrepresented and infiltrated by the secret powerful cadre that is hydra.

[teestub]

Maybe SHIELD up to Civil War, where they start over reaching themselves and trying to tell heroes what to do 

[cheque]

We're all sick of the politics as well  - please vote for option A, get this done and dusted and we can all carry on with doing the useful stuff.

Is there anything to stop Bob P et al starting it all over again?

[Will Hunt]

No. And I don't think him and his mates will go away while there's still a sufficient number to whip each other up.

[tomtom]

Interviews with both pres candidates up on the other channel... I was drawn to highlight these sections...

#facepalm

How can the BMC encourage more female participation in organisation and events?

When I started climbing female rock climbers were certainly a rarity, but I am pleased that there are now several women climbing both as mixed and same sex pairs.......

Women are certainly capable and I feel that it is important for their own self esteem for them to know that they have been chosen on merit, rather than to meet a quota.....

I agree that more female participation is needed to better represent their interests because there are important differences between the sexes.
 

[Offwidth]

We're all sick of the politics as well  - please vote for option A, get this done and dusted and we can all carry on with doing the useful stuff.

Is there anything to stop Bob P et al starting it all over again?

Yes, they are looking at improving codes of conduct, complaint procedures, grievance etc. This stuff isn't that hard: most big organisations have protocols for dealing with offensive behaviour, evidenced dishonesty, or even just regular troublemakers and persistent rule breakers, without affecting democratic concerns and debate. The problem has never been Bob's opinions, just his behaviour, insults and dishonest, secretive anti-democratic practices. Also remember that the awkward squad could have at any point have stood for election on their independant platform, locally or for President. I dont think it was ever anything to do with the way the BMC was run... its probably never been run better... it's a few once important climbers seeing their power and influence starting to fade and stirring up trouble to halt the new generations who have different views and can better use the improving BMC democratic structures. Bob always claims to work on behalf of democracy but all the evidence is that he fears it. Option A will most probably lead to live electronic voting by plebs at the AGM and possibly local areas from 2019.