[Smith42]

So last year when I was nt injured and the route was dry i was trying to red point a route a Kilnsey. Easy start to no hands rest, then around 25-30 hand moves to the top.

I was falling at the last hard move, sometimes powering out and other times pumping out.  But whatever the cause of failure I only have enough in my arms for one solid attempt per day. 

I v re-read Alex Barrows excellent training guidance but still not sure how best to increase my number of attempts per day. 

Will increasing my aerobic capacity increase the number of attempts per day? Or is this just related to trying really hard and the route being close to my endurance limit and should I try prioritising one of the other components?

[remus]

Will increasing my aerobic capacity increase the number of attempts per day? Or is this just related to trying really hard and the route being close to my endurance limit and should I try prioritising one of the other components?

Hard to say without knowing what your profile looks like (i.e. are you already well developed aerobically?). 25-30 hard moves after easy climbing doesn't sound like it's big volume though so it's surprising you're getting so few attempts in a day. My guess would be that you're anaerobic system is overdeveloped compared to your aerobic system and your aerobic system is underdeveloped in general, so you get totally blasted on your good rp go then aren't able to recover in a sensible time span even with complete rest.

The other thing to think about is how long are you leaving between goes? If you're only having 30 mins rest between goes then it'd be unsurprising that you'd only get a single decent burn! In theory you probably shouldn't need too much rest (based on the intensity you've described) but in practice more rest is unlikely to hurt, especially if you are aerobically unfit. Just make sure you're warm again before you get back on the route.

There might also be a mental component to it. If you've had a few sessions where your second/third/fourth burns were rubbish then it's easy to fall in to the trap of thinking they're always going to be crap. The old 'Im just gonna take the draws out/brush the holds/try this move' might be worth a go to get out of that, though it's always tricky to actually convince yourself with well worn tactics like those!

[jwi]

I agree that one try a day sounds very little. Unless you have worked the route forever-and-ever and do every move at maximal efficiency (efficiency doesn't improve over the day), you never make any movement mistakes, the friction is always perfect and the route is above your current fitness level: then I would expect one or maximum two attempt per day.

Agree with remus on the mental aspect, some climbers get way too upset about a bad attempt or a bad day. They happen.

That said, it's quite clear what you have to work to improve recovery, no? I find it unlikely that it can be explained by anything else than bad stamina, in the broad sense. You are likely to have low mitochondria count, low capillarity, underdeveloped lactate shuttle, underdeveloped size in the type I muscle cells, and possibly a badly functioning potassium-sodium pump. This can be improved by doing a fuck-ton of moves per session over time. Cf. spanish stamina training.

[duncan]

That said, it's quite clear what you have to work to improve recovery, no? I find it unlikely that it can be explained by anything else than bad stamina, in the broad sense. You are likely to have low mitochondria count, low capillarity, underdeveloped lactate shuttle, underdeveloped size in the type I muscle cells, and possibly a badly functioning potassium-sodium pump. This can be improved by doing a fuck-ton of moves per session over time. Cf. spanish stamina training.

In case you missed the original: buy gardening gloves.

[spidermonkey09]

Sorry for brief thread hijack but hopefully all useful information!

Can this happen even over a winter do you reckon jwi? Started doing some route training again last week after a winter of bouldering and shocked at how poor my aerobic capacity seems to be. Never had to worry about it before as had good trad and sport background from the summer when I started my last block in October. Have been getting powered out very early in the session trying the 7b circuit; perhaps a case of trying to run before I can walk? Might try a few sessions of cruising around on 6a territory for  half an hour before trying anything harder.

The logic behind this was that I want to climb Supercool this summer and reasoned if I can lap a crimpy 7b 5 times I'll be well on the way; this seemed more logical than jug hauling as Yorkshire lime training.

Back to the thread; 1 proper go seems a bit light to me. I was getting 4 redpoints out of myself on power endurance routes on the catwalk and at least 3 at Kilnsey, once I had the routes dialled. Presume you're taking an hour off between RPs?

[Smith42]

Thanks for comments. I am more of a boulderer so all of that would make sense.  Am pretty sure I v got the tactics sorted both on the day and rest days etc. 
I usually climb 4 or 5 times a week at different intensity but have started endurance training on 2 of these days.  Been doing big volume of problems on the minute then multiple boulder 4x4s.  That's around 130 problems in a two hour session, I am left feeling completely broken in a heap on the mat at the end of the session.  I have also been on lead/top rope routes, doing ten mins on/off on TR or 200m of leading. Am usually left in a heap on the floor at the end of these sessions too! Both sessions I get to 95% completion, failure usually fingers opening up. 
Thinking about it now, i m not sure if I m making this too high an intensity?

[jwi]

Aerobic ability is unfortunately quite easy to detrain. I've read some quite shocking case-studies on rowers. This seems to be the case for many climbers as well. Even extremely good onsight climbers can loose quite a lot over 2-3 months of bouldering.

But, on the other hand, aerobic ability can increase quite rapidly when it is underdeveloped. For technical reasons that has to do with gene-expressions it seems good to have many bouts of training lasting at least 15 min without stopping (except to run between problems if doing a circuit). If you're doing block periodisation, 3 weeks x 4-5 session/week will make a big difference, unless you are Patxi U. For undulating periodisation 2-3 session p week concurrent with other training, I'd expect good results in 5-6 weeks.

So yeah, for a short-time increase in the level I'd expect to see effect on myself already after 2-3 sessions of cruising on jugs.  Maybe even after one single mega session. If you're doing laps on 7b (with short rests? less than a minute or so? in which case your onsight level on euro limestone is around 7b+/c?) that should at least not decrease your session stamina.

(The most qualified climbing coach I know (with several athletes that've reached WC finals, have onsighted and redpointed at world class levels) makes all of his athletes (including people only bouldering) do at least 4 weeks of high volume training a year.) For practical reasons I cannot do block-periodisation right now.

[jwi]

À propos bouldering on the minute. I never could make that exercise work for me at all. I am very sceptical for both practical and theoretical reasons that it will markedly improve aerobic capacity for a route climber.

If you cannot increase your volume from week to week the first month or so you are doing something very wrong, either too hard climbing or too many sessions with strength/strengh endurance training that eat up your recovery ability. Probably the former.

[spidermonkey09]

Aerobic ability is unfortunately quite easy to detrain. I've read some quite shocking case-studies on rowers. This seems to be the case for many climbers as well. Even extremely good onsight climbers can loose quite a lot over 2-3 months of bouldering.

But, on the other hand, aerobic ability can increase quite rapidly when it is underdeveloped. For technical reasons that has to do with gene-expressions it seems good to have many bouts of training lasting at least 15 min without stopping (except to run between problems if doing a circuit). If you're doing block periodisation, 3 weeks x 4-5 session/week will make a big difference, unless you are Patxi U. For undulating periodisation 2-3 session p week concurrent with other training, I'd expect good results in 5-6 weeks.

So yeah, for a short-time increase in the level I'd expect to see effect on myself already after 2-3 sessions of cruising on jugs.  Maybe even after one single mega session. If you're doing laps on 7b (with short rests? less than a minute or so? in which case your onsight level on euro limestone is around 7b+/c?) that should at least not decrease your session stamina.

(The most qualified climbing coach I know (with several athletes that've reached WC finals, have onsighted and redpointed at world class levels) makes all of his athletes (including people only bouldering) do at least 4 weeks of high volume training a year.) For practical reasons I cannot do block-periodisation right now.

Interesting, thanks. For clarity, I'm certainly not lapping the 7b yet, so Euro 7b+/c onsight isn't quite my level!

Sounds like I need to get some mileage in and do a lot of moves! Once it warms up enough to climb routes outside this will start to happen more naturally; tricky when its too cold to do more than 5 moves in a row!

The trick will be to lose as little finger strength as possible while hanging on all the jugs I guess...

[highrepute]

When I was climbing a lot more routes and training routes more consistently 3 to 4 good RPs was normal at Malham/Kilnsey.

Now I don't train or climb routes much 1 to 2 good RPs seem about standard. My grade has dropped much I'm just really unfit. Last time I went to Kilnsey I hadn't recovered the next day and had real struggle to get up anything at Trollers!

There you go. That's sports science for ya. If you're fit then you're fit.

[moose]

On an average length route, I get 3-4 reasonable RPs, but it's a long day as I need 1-1.5 hrs between goes.  For long routes (like all the Stolen / Showtime mash-ups at Kilnsey), 2-3 RPs , with the 3rd being frequently tragic.

Agree that endurance can really tank without any work.  Every Spring, after a winter spent purely bouldering, I can barely scrape up Consenting without passing out from lactate build-up! I completely lose the ability to relax - overgripping all the way.  Takes a few months of route climbing before I re-develop my innate ability to rest on jugs. 

I guess the solution would be to actually do some proper training aerobic but I enjoy woodie climbing too much! 

[nai]

I guess the solution would be to actually do some proper training aerobic but I enjoy woodie climbing too much!

An hour a week is all it takes, possibly even less, you can't climb on the woodie every day after all, can be done as an active recovery day or just after a wall session (although that possibly has an affect on any strength gains). Worth the minor hassle I reckon, if I do it I feel solid straight away when I first get out in Spring, otherwise it's a nervy jittery start that wastes several sessions.

[Paul B]

So last year when I was nt injured and the route was dry i was trying to red point a route a Kilnsey. Easy start to no hands rest, then around 25-30 hand moves to the top.

Do you mind naming the route? It might help.

[remus]

An hour a week is all it takes, possibly even less, you can't climb on the woodie every day after all, can be done as an active recovery day or just after a wall session (although that possibly has an affect on any strength gains). Worth the minor hassle I reckon, if I do it I feel solid straight away when I first get out in Spring, otherwise it's a nervy jittery start that wastes several sessions.

...or a couple of weeks of focused effort before route season starts. To my mind it's an obvious choice, makes the first few sessions tying in after winter a lot more productive.

[abarro81]

If you're fit then you're fit.

Not meaning to disagree with you on too many threads in quick succession... but....
I'm not convinced that the above comment is quite true. This Christmas I felt that I seemed to have plenty of aerobic day fitness but was very lacking in day fitness for strength and my anaerobic system. So I could go and climb ~7c all day, as it was at a level that meant I was mostly running aerobically, but I basically had 1 good go on something hard and then I was tanked. My preliminary conclusion was that you need to build day fitness (work capacity) for strength, anaerobic and aerobic systems, not just do all your volume as aero work whilst ignoring volume in the other aspects... not had time to experiment with fixing this and switching back to performance mode yet to see if I might be right, but Stu didn't look at me like I was on crack when I suggested this so it must seem vaguely feasible..

[Stu Littlefair]

+1 to jwi in this instance.

Smith42 - As a boulderer you are basically lacking recovery/stamina. Even now, the stamina training you describe is probably not ideal and you're doing too little of it. For a 3-4 week block, try swapping the ratios round - so if you are climbing 4-5 days a week, train endurance on 3-4 days, not 2. Instead of doing big volume on boulder problems that leave you in a heap, try staying on the wall for 3 blocks of 15 minutes, and being mildly pumped throughout. It's dull, but it will be much more effective for gaining recovery. Then you can go back to what you're doing now for 3 weeks - then try your project again. I predict a smash.

w.r.t what Alex says, and with the caveat that this is off-topic... I think he has a point; for well trained climbers. It's possible to be very fit (in the sense of 1/2 good goes on a top-level endurance route), but lack the ability to put in high volume days on routes 'a notch down' from your top level. At my best, I've been able to put in 6-7 good redpoints on routes a grade below my max. Training this involves doing a lot of high volume, high intensity work and almost certainly implies a short term trade-off in max performance.

[Stu Littlefair]

nb: getting this many decent redpoints in also means sticking with a route, even if one of your attempts is shit and you feel knackered. I see a lot of people give up after the 2nd or 3rd go because it didn't go well. I've lost count of the number of times I've had a shit 2nd or 3rd go, and then smashed a route in on the 4th or 5th try.

[jwi]

nb: getting this many decent redpoints in also means sticking with a route, even if one of your attempts is shit and you feel knackered. I see a lot of people give up after the 2nd or 3rd go because it didn't go well. I've lost count of the number of times I've had a shit 2nd or 3rd go, and then smashed a route in on the 4th or 5th try.

This x 2.

[Paul B]

...and then smashed a route in on the 4th or 5th try.

I'm always amazed when you say this as beyond 3rd go my skin is usually getting damaged in specific places on UK lime and it feels like I'm risking needing a fair amount of time away for it to heal.

[abarro81]

I've lost count of the number of times I've had a shit 2nd or 3rd go, and then smashed a route in on the 4th or 5th try.

I've also lost count of that for me, but only because I counted to 0 and then started wondering whether you could really count 'to' zero, or some such shit. But as discussed above, I think I have a habit of being quite 'fit' in that I do well on enduro routes whilst not being very 'fit' in a day-fitness/work capacity sense... plus if I have 2 good goes and one shit go, I go home, like Stu tells me not to.

I suspect someone like Noble is the opposite of me in this sense - he might have a tough time on an enduro route 'cos he never does enduro routes, but he can go out an boulder a couple of grades below his max for hours on end and then get up and do the same the next day.

[Smith42]

Thanks guys, I suspected I was getting the volume/intestity/frequency at bit wrong.  Its just hard to sacrifice bouldering, even indoors (The Valley/Pool in Newcastle, so many cool problems each week!)

 

[SA Chris]

If you don't have a powernap between attempts it ain't happening

[petejh]

If you don't have a powernap hanging off a kneebar en-route it ain't happening

Fixed

[jwi]

If you don't have a powernap hanging off a kneebar off-route it ain't happening

Fixed

Fixed

[moose]

If you don't have a powernap between attempts it ain't happening

+1 Once in RP campaign mode, I'll usually be found at Kilnsey laying on a bouldering mat for hours at a time reading a book or doing Guardian cryptics - anything less than 1.5 rest and I risk leaving some capacity behind.

[jamesturnbull97]

I'm all aboard with the 3rd RP sending, I've done dozens of routes 3rd redpoint (4th go up of the day). I often think it is mental as well as you think that you'll be to tried to do it at the end of the day so it takes some of the pressure off so you climb better. In Ceuse at the end of a 3 month euro trip last year essentially climbing 2 on 1 off for the entirety I found myself ticking routes 4th or 5th RP of the day having climbed properly on early goes.

[Rocksteady]

I think I get 3-4 genuine good goes in a day.

In terms of when to have next go it depends on weather conditions and why I fell off. If I slipped off early I might wait just 20 mins and have another go. If I gave it everything and came off near the top I'd wait an hour, or until I felt fully recovered. In UK winter though there can be the challenge of fully cooling down so sometimes I'd have to warm back up with bouldering around or an abortive go at the start of the route to get the blood flowing again.

But I've read a number of times Ondra saying he gets 1-2 goes a day on absolute maximum level routes. When I saw him trying Shaxi Raxi years ago he only had one go a day. That would be quite below his top level now I guess!

[Doylo]

Depends how long the route is and how high you get.

[Smith42]

How pumped should I feel at the end of session?

Thank you for all the earlier advice, especially Stu, that was bit of wake up call. 
Been doing lower intensity higher volume and feel fitter already! 

Currently doing:
Aerobic day
Aerobic day
Rest day,
Strength/Power day,
Aerobic day
Aerobic day
Rest day.

Valley Bouldering wall been trying four x 15mins on/off on Trav/Circuit board but it’s a bit steep (or I’m not quite fit enough yet) so usually end in failure.  @500moves.
Newcastle Climbing Centre I v been climbing up and down for 15mins which works well.  @600m climbing.
Sunderland Wall been leading four blocks of four routes. @300m climbing.

Last night I set off to climb four blocks of four long 6a/6a+ routes at Sunderland Wall, including lowering and rope stuff that’s around 20-25mins a block.   However the first block felt a bit too easy so on the next three blocks I threw in some 6b/6c routes.  By the last block I was back on the first 6a fighting to hang on the jugs. 

Am I correct in thinking that this means the intensity is too hard for me and I should stick to cruising the 6a/6a+ for the whole session so I feel slightly pumped by the end of the session or should I persevere at the higher level until I’m cruising the 6b/6c routes?

[Will Hunt]

I'm also interested in this. For the past month or two I've been trying to mix in some endurancey work into my wall visits (1 per week). Now that the Depot comp (5th overall. YYFY) has finished I've switched this to entirely aerocap work as my problem seems to be that I pump out very quickly and stay very very pumped, even after moving onto good holds (I'm supposing this is an aerobic system that is completely unable to deal with the lactic created by the anaerobic system - so basically what the OP is reporting).

I've basically been doing easier lead and top-rope routes at the wall (although I have been naughty and been trying too hard sometimes). I'm not really sure where to pitch my effort. If I do some 4x4s should I be at failure or near-failure on the last rep of each set? Or should the aim be to just do as many moves in a session? If I was going to do this then presumably I'd just stick to 5s and 6as and race up as many routes as possible. I don't think I'd succeed in getting very pumped.

[highrepute]

This AeroCap stuff is all nonsense right?

If your problem is getting pumped then climbing around for 25mins not getting pumped is not going to change that (not very quickly anyway). Are lattice to blame for this? Are climbers having entire session that are supposedly getting them fitter in which they are never getting pumped?

I can tolerate the idea of doing 10-20 mins aerocap as a warmup/down but the rest of the session should be involve getting pumped to oblivion.

I'm aware that there is this analogy to running were pro runners do 80% easy runs and 20% hard or something. But we're not pro runners or pro climbers or runners. If a club runner wants to get quicker they go on more short and fast runs, getting their skinny legs pumped as fuck.

Will - 4x4s - I'd aim to be doing 4 sets of 4 routes and failing on the last route of the 3rd and 4th set. Pumped as possible is what i'd aim for.

How pumped should I feel at the end of session?

Borrows once told me - Very tired and very bored.

This advice is entirely based on what i think in my head I have collected no psuedo-scientific data involving banister rails to come up with this advice.

[tomtom]

Will - just buy yourself a road bike and some lycra and skip the endurance/chuffing stage

[bendavison]

This AeroCap stuff is all nonsense right?

If your problem is getting pumped then climbing around for 25mins not getting pumped is not going to change that (not very quickly anyway). Are lattice to blame for this? Are climbers having entire session that are supposedly getting them fitter in which they are never getting pumped?

I kinda like this little rant. AeroCap is getting an awful lot of attention. However, I get the impression that those being trained by lattice and those who have looked into it are still going and getting pumped into oblivion during certain phases of their training, but now that's not all they're doing.

Will - 4x4s - I'd aim to be doing 4 sets of 4 routes and failing on the last route of the 3rd and 4th set. Pumped as possible is what i'd aim for.

Where did this general obsession with 4x4s on routes for very pumpy enduro training come from? Unless your wall is <10 m tall then surely this is far too many metres, and therefore much lower intensity, than required for your goal routes? To expand your running analogy, I'd suggest this fits very comfortably into the 'wasted miles' category. Also limiting your training reps/sets multiples of 4, which are just plucked out of thin air, means you lose a variable with which you can adjust your training.

[highrepute]

I kinda like this little rant. AeroCap is getting an awful lot of attention. However, I get the impression that those being trained by lattice and those who have looked into it are still going and getting pumped into oblivion during certain phases of their training, but now that's not all they're doing.

Will - 4x4s - I'd aim to be doing 4 sets of 4 routes and failing on the last route of the 3rd and 4th set. Pumped as possible is what i'd aim for.

Where did this general obsession with 4x4s on routes for very pumpy enduro training come from? Unless your wall is <10 m tall then surely this is far too many metres, and therefore much lower intensity, than required for your goal routes? To expand your running analogy, I'd suggest this fits very comfortably into the 'wasted miles' category. Also limiting your training reps/sets multiples of 4, which are just plucked out of thin air, means you lose a variable with which you can adjust your training.

Fair point - I'd listen to Ben on this rather than me.

I guess Will mentioned 4x4s so I was answering that directly. When I do 4x4 routes it would be as training for onsighting spanish sport - so I wanted to be on the wall for a long time and I'd not usually stop at 4 sets. I'm guessing Will is training for esoteric Yorkshire Limestone so couple of laps up the dustiest corner of the wall ought to do it.

[SA Chris]

Will is good at lapping up in a dirty corner.

[Smith42]

I might be barking up the wrong tree, but I think when we are more used to bouldering there is a tendency to feel under trained at the end of an Aerobic session. 
So we increase the difficulty of the moves/routes and end up pumped to failure or near failure at the end of session.  Which is fine, and we still see gains from this, however it is maybe not the most efficient way the train the aerobic system. 

[Stu Littlefair]

In response to all the ranters:

Where did you get the idea that aero cap training means not getting pumped? I think you mean ARC, which is bollocks. Aerocap training is just endurance training and involves sessions like:

1) Long durations on the wall at mild pump throughout
2) Long (~30-60 move) intervals with short rests, at the end of which pump levels should be high, but not terminal.

I don't think there's any sound evidence for which kind of approach is better, so take your pick, mix and match or use yourself as a guinea pig

[highrepute]

In response to all the ranters:

Where did you get the idea that aero cap training means not getting pumped? I think you mean ARC, which is bollocks. Aerocap training is just endurance training and involves sessions like:

1) Long durations on the wall at mild pump throughout
2) Long (~30-60 move) intervals with short rests, at the end of which pump levels should be high, but not terminal.

I don't think there's any sound evidence for which kind of approach is better, so take your pick, mix and match or use yourself as a guinea pig

Aerobic capacity 10+ min n/a Sustained light pump - Training for Sport Climbing By Alex Barrows

[Will Hunt]

One question raised above is whether this sort of training is effective for British limestone. The Barrows Manifesto explains why it should be applicable (ability to shake out and recover at a rest. Ability to metabolise large quantities of lactic etc). Do you put store in this, Stu (notwithstanding your desire to take the piss out of barrows at every opportunity).

[Smith42]

Thanks Stu.
Think am on the right track. 
Going to stick with getting pumped on the routes but will use the Valley board for ciruits with short rests.

[Stu Littlefair]

One question raised above is whether this sort of training is effective for British limestone. The Barrows Manifesto explains why it should be applicable (ability to shake out and recover at a rest. Ability to metabolise large quantities of lactic etc). Do you put store in this, Stu (notwithstanding your desire to take the piss out of barrows at every opportunity).

Having gone through the conversion from tit-to-fit myself I do put a lot of store in low intensity aerobic training, but I wouldn’t credit Barrows with anything.

It has obvious application to shaking out in resta but I think it’s more generally useful; the ability to clean up the mess produced by the anaerobic system should mean a boulderer could have mhore tries in a day, or train harder on volume days. I think jwi’s point earlier about trainers who make everyone do a block of this stuff, even if they don’t care about routes is worth thinking about.

[abarro81]

How pumped should I feel at the end of session?

Depends. Aero cap work spans everything from easy pootling (increased bloodflow but low pump) to pretty damn pumped but not quite at failure. I split my aero cap work into 1/3rds at the moment - if I'm doing 1hr 30 then 30min is easy ARC, 30 min is continuous aero cap at moderate/high pump and 30min is split intensity at moderate/high pump. That may not be a good way to run it, but it's what I did last year and what I'll do again this year.

How pumped should I feel at the end of session?

Borrows once told me - Very tired and very bored.

Damn right. Although I actually find the slightly higher intensity aerocap very fun if done on a rope.

This AeroCap stuff is all nonsense right?

If your problem is getting pumped then climbing around for 25mins not getting pumped is not going to change that (not very quickly anyway). Are lattice to blame for this? Are climbers having entire session that are supposedly getting them fitter in which they are never getting pumped?

It might not change it quickly, but it will change it slowly, and give you a base from which to change it quickly when the time comes. I wouldn't advocate having whole sessions like this though, I would do it after other sessions, or as part of a double session. I've seen enough people reap big benefits to be convinced that aero cap works. That said, it should involve a certain level of pump, and a mix of higher and lower intensities.

I don't remember what I wrote (it was about 5 years ago), but I think I do more of the higher intensity aero cap work nowadays than I used to back then. I don't think I did any split intensity work then, or not much, so that's kinda newer too. But don't listen to shit from me anyway, like Stu would tell you

I wouldn’t credit Barrows with anything.

That's not true, you regularly credit me with being both annoying and lanky.

[Will Hunt]

Thanks guys. The message I'm  taking from this is: don't think about it too much, just make sure you do a lot of moves and make sure you get pumped and you won't go far wrong. This suits my limited capacity to get enthusiastic about complicated training regimens.

[SA Chris]

use yourself as a guinea pig

Sit in a cage and eat pellets?

[Steve Crowe]

So I’m thinking for The Bulge you could try

4x(2+4)’s Two easy problems then four hard problems totalling about 30 moves.

Then

About 30 moves circuit board traversing


Then

30 moves foot on Campus

and finally

30 moves upside down across the steep roofs at The Valley

[Steve Crowe]

That was at The Valley

Then the Sunderland Wall session

There are three ex Competition routes that Karin and I put finishes on. One on each 23m section.

Two pinks and a white.

Climb each one three times.

Job done.

[Steve Crowe]

Three good redpoints in a day is taxing your energy systems and all this training is to improve that.

Something else to consider is diet. Good crag food is important, protein and quality carbohydrates.

[TobyD]

Depends how long the route is and how high you get.

... What the holds are like, whether the crag is near your home or not... It's miraculous sometimes how much deeper you'll dig if it's a huge effort/ expense to get back to have another go.

On the groove at Malham, I reckon I get one redpoint a day really. In shape, on something like raindogs I'd get about 5 or 6.

[Smith42]

Thanks Steve, thanks Toby, am nursing a finger injury at moment, (crush/bruising to nerve in my pinkie finger from hanging on jugs at Sun Wall!) but I’ll get back to the endurance training soon.  And think Kilnsey is going to take a few weeks to dry out anyway.