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How many good red point attempts in a day. (Read 12879 times)

Smith42

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How many good red point attempts in a day.
March 21, 2018, 01:54:52 pm
So last year when I was nt injured and the route was dry i was trying to red point a route a Kilnsey. Easy start to no hands rest, then around 25-30 hand moves to the top.

I was falling at the last hard move, sometimes powering out and other times pumping out.  But whatever the cause of failure I only have enough in my arms for one solid attempt per day. 

I v re-read Alex Barrows excellent training guidance but still not sure how best to increase my number of attempts per day. 

Will increasing my aerobic capacity increase the number of attempts per day? Or is this just related to trying really hard and the route being close to my endurance limit and should I try prioritising one of the other components?


remus

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Will increasing my aerobic capacity increase the number of attempts per day? Or is this just related to trying really hard and the route being close to my endurance limit and should I try prioritising one of the other components?

Hard to say without knowing what your profile looks like (i.e. are you already well developed aerobically?). 25-30 hard moves after easy climbing doesn't sound like it's big volume though so it's surprising you're getting so few attempts in a day. My guess would be that you're anaerobic system is overdeveloped compared to your aerobic system and your aerobic system is underdeveloped in general, so you get totally blasted on your good rp go then aren't able to recover in a sensible time span even with complete rest.

The other thing to think about is how long are you leaving between goes? If you're only having 30 mins rest between goes then it'd be unsurprising that you'd only get a single decent burn! In theory you probably shouldn't need too much rest (based on the intensity you've described) but in practice more rest is unlikely to hurt, especially if you are aerobically unfit. Just make sure you're warm again before you get back on the route.

There might also be a mental component to it. If you've had a few sessions where your second/third/fourth burns were rubbish then it's easy to fall in to the trap of thinking they're always going to be crap. The old 'Im just gonna take the draws out/brush the holds/try this move' might be worth a go to get out of that, though it's always tricky to actually convince yourself with well worn tactics like those!

jwi

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I agree that one try a day sounds very little. Unless you have worked the route forever-and-ever and do every move at maximal efficiency (efficiency doesn't improve over the day), you never make any movement mistakes, the friction is always perfect and the route is above your current fitness level: then I would expect one or maximum two attempt per day.

Agree with remus on the mental aspect, some climbers get way too upset about a bad attempt or a bad day. They happen.

That said, it's quite clear what you have to work to improve recovery, no? I find it unlikely that it can be explained by anything else than bad stamina, in the broad sense. You are likely to have low mitochondria count, low capillarity, underdeveloped lactate shuttle, underdeveloped size in the type I muscle cells, and possibly a badly functioning potassium-sodium pump. This can be improved by doing a fuck-ton of moves per session over time. Cf. spanish stamina training.

duncan

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That said, it's quite clear what you have to work to improve recovery, no? I find it unlikely that it can be explained by anything else than bad stamina, in the broad sense. You are likely to have low mitochondria count, low capillarity, underdeveloped lactate shuttle, underdeveloped size in the type I muscle cells, and possibly a badly functioning potassium-sodium pump. This can be improved by doing a fuck-ton of moves per session over time. Cf. spanish stamina training.

In case you missed the original: buy gardening gloves.

spidermonkey09

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Sorry for brief thread hijack but hopefully all useful information!

Can this happen even over a winter do you reckon jwi? Started doing some route training again last week after a winter of bouldering and shocked at how poor my aerobic capacity seems to be. Never had to worry about it before as had good trad and sport background from the summer when I started my last block in October. Have been getting powered out very early in the session trying the 7b circuit; perhaps a case of trying to run before I can walk? Might try a few sessions of cruising around on 6a territory for  half an hour before trying anything harder.

The logic behind this was that I want to climb Supercool this summer and reasoned if I can lap a crimpy 7b 5 times I'll be well on the way; this seemed more logical than jug hauling as Yorkshire lime training.

Back to the thread; 1 proper go seems a bit light to me. I was getting 4 redpoints out of myself on power endurance routes on the catwalk and at least 3 at Kilnsey, once I had the routes dialled. Presume you're taking an hour off between RPs?

Smith42

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Thanks for comments. I am more of a boulderer so all of that would make sense.  Am pretty sure I v got the tactics sorted both on the day and rest days etc. 
I usually climb 4 or 5 times a week at different intensity but have started endurance training on 2 of these days.  Been doing big volume of problems on the minute then multiple boulder 4x4s.  That's around 130 problems in a two hour session, I am left feeling completely broken in a heap on the mat at the end of the session.  I have also been on lead/top rope routes, doing ten mins on/off on TR or 200m of leading. Am usually left in a heap on the floor at the end of these sessions too! Both sessions I get to 95% completion, failure usually fingers opening up. 
Thinking about it now, i m not sure if I m making this too high an intensity?

jwi

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Aerobic ability is unfortunately quite easy to detrain. I've read some quite shocking case-studies on rowers. This seems to be the case for many climbers as well. Even extremely good onsight climbers can loose quite a lot over 2-3 months of bouldering.

But, on the other hand, aerobic ability can increase quite rapidly when it is underdeveloped. For technical reasons that has to do with gene-expressions it seems good to have many bouts of training lasting at least 15 min without stopping (except to run between problems if doing a circuit). If you're doing block periodisation, 3 weeks x 4-5 session/week will make a big difference, unless you are Patxi U. For undulating periodisation 2-3 session p week concurrent with other training, I'd expect good results in 5-6 weeks.

So yeah, for a short-time increase in the level I'd expect to see effect on myself already after 2-3 sessions of cruising on jugs.  Maybe even after one single mega session. If you're doing laps on 7b (with short rests? less than a minute or so? in which case your onsight level on euro limestone is around 7b+/c?) that should at least not decrease your session stamina.

(The most qualified climbing coach I know (with several athletes that've reached WC finals, have onsighted and redpointed at world class levels) makes all of his athletes (including people only bouldering) do at least 4 weeks of high volume training a year.) For practical reasons I cannot do block-periodisation right now.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 04:39:36 pm by jwi »

jwi

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À propos bouldering on the minute. I never could make that exercise work for me at all. I am very sceptical for both practical and theoretical reasons that it will markedly improve aerobic capacity for a route climber.

If you cannot increase your volume from week to week the first month or so you are doing something very wrong, either too hard climbing or too many sessions with strength/strengh endurance training that eat up your recovery ability. Probably the former.

spidermonkey09

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Aerobic ability is unfortunately quite easy to detrain. I've read some quite shocking case-studies on rowers. This seems to be the case for many climbers as well. Even extremely good onsight climbers can loose quite a lot over 2-3 months of bouldering.

But, on the other hand, aerobic ability can increase quite rapidly when it is underdeveloped. For technical reasons that has to do with gene-expressions it seems good to have many bouts of training lasting at least 15 min without stopping (except to run between problems if doing a circuit). If you're doing block periodisation, 3 weeks x 4-5 session/week will make a big difference, unless you are Patxi U. For undulating periodisation 2-3 session p week concurrent with other training, I'd expect good results in 5-6 weeks.

So yeah, for a short-time increase in the level I'd expect to see effect on myself already after 2-3 sessions of cruising on jugs.  Maybe even after one single mega session. If you're doing laps on 7b (with short rests? less than a minute or so? in which case your onsight level on euro limestone is around 7b+/c?) that should at least not decrease your session stamina.

(The most qualified climbing coach I know (with several athletes that've reached WC finals, have onsighted and redpointed at world class levels) makes all of his athletes (including people only bouldering) do at least 4 weeks of high volume training a year.) For practical reasons I cannot do block-periodisation right now.

Interesting, thanks. For clarity, I'm certainly not lapping the 7b yet, so Euro 7b+/c onsight isn't quite my level!

Sounds like I need to get some mileage in and do a lot of moves! Once it warms up enough to climb routes outside this will start to happen more naturally; tricky when its too cold to do more than 5 moves in a row!

The trick will be to lose as little finger strength as possible while hanging on all the jugs I guess...

highrepute

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When I was climbing a lot more routes and training routes more consistently 3 to 4 good RPs was normal at Malham/Kilnsey.

Now I don't train or climb routes much :'( 1 to 2 good RPs seem about standard. My grade has dropped much I'm just really unfit. Last time I went to Kilnsey I hadn't recovered the next day and had real struggle to get up anything at Trollers!

There you go. That's sports science for ya. If you're fit then you're fit.

moose

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On an average length route, I get 3-4 reasonable RPs, but it's a long day as I need 1-1.5 hrs between goes.  For long routes (like all the Stolen / Showtime mash-ups at Kilnsey), 2-3 RPs , with the 3rd being frequently tragic.

Agree that endurance can really tank without any work.  Every Spring, after a winter spent purely bouldering, I can barely scrape up Consenting without passing out from lactate build-up! I completely lose the ability to relax - overgripping all the way.  Takes a few months of route climbing before I re-develop my innate ability to rest on jugs. 

I guess the solution would be to actually do some proper training aerobic but I enjoy woodie climbing too much! 

nai

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I guess the solution would be to actually do some proper training aerobic but I enjoy woodie climbing too much!

An hour a week is all it takes, possibly even less, you can't climb on the woodie every day after all, can be done as an active recovery day or just after a wall session (although that possibly has an affect on any strength gains). Worth the minor hassle I reckon, if I do it I feel solid straight away when I first get out in Spring, otherwise it's a nervy jittery start that wastes several sessions.

Paul B

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So last year when I was nt injured and the route was dry i was trying to red point a route a Kilnsey. Easy start to no hands rest, then around 25-30 hand moves to the top.

Do you mind naming the route? It might help.

remus

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Quote
An hour a week is all it takes, possibly even less, you can't climb on the woodie every day after all, can be done as an active recovery day or just after a wall session (although that possibly has an affect on any strength gains). Worth the minor hassle I reckon, if I do it I feel solid straight away when I first get out in Spring, otherwise it's a nervy jittery start that wastes several sessions.

...or a couple of weeks of focused effort before route season starts. To my mind it's an obvious choice, makes the first few sessions tying in after winter a lot more productive.

abarro81

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If you're fit then you're fit.

Not meaning to disagree with you on too many threads in quick succession... but....
I'm not convinced that the above comment is quite true. This Christmas I felt that I seemed to have plenty of aerobic day fitness but was very lacking in day fitness for strength and my anaerobic system. So I could go and climb ~7c all day, as it was at a level that meant I was mostly running aerobically, but I basically had 1 good go on something hard and then I was tanked. My preliminary conclusion was that you need to build day fitness (work capacity) for strength, anaerobic and aerobic systems, not just do all your volume as aero work whilst ignoring volume in the other aspects... not had time to experiment with fixing this and switching back to performance mode yet to see if I might be right, but Stu didn't look at me like I was on crack when I suggested this so it must seem vaguely feasible..

Stu Littlefair

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+1 to jwi in this instance.

Smith42 - As a boulderer you are basically lacking recovery/stamina. Even now, the stamina training you describe is probably not ideal and you're doing too little of it. For a 3-4 week block, try swapping the ratios round - so if you are climbing 4-5 days a week, train endurance on 3-4 days, not 2. Instead of doing big volume on boulder problems that leave you in a heap, try staying on the wall for 3 blocks of 15 minutes, and being mildly pumped throughout. It's dull, but it will be much more effective for gaining recovery. Then you can go back to what you're doing now for 3 weeks - then try your project again. I predict a smash.

w.r.t what Alex says, and with the caveat that this is off-topic... I think he has a point; for well trained climbers. It's possible to be very fit (in the sense of 1/2 good goes on a top-level endurance route), but lack the ability to put in high volume days on routes 'a notch down' from your top level. At my best, I've been able to put in 6-7 good redpoints on routes a grade below my max. Training this involves doing a lot of high volume, high intensity work and almost certainly implies a short term trade-off in max performance.

Stu Littlefair

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nb: getting this many decent redpoints in also means sticking with a route, even if one of your attempts is shit and you feel knackered. I see a lot of people give up after the 2nd or 3rd go because it didn't go well. I've lost count of the number of times I've had a shit 2nd or 3rd go, and then smashed a route in on the 4th or 5th try.

jwi

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nb: getting this many decent redpoints in also means sticking with a route, even if one of your attempts is shit and you feel knackered. I see a lot of people give up after the 2nd or 3rd go because it didn't go well. I've lost count of the number of times I've had a shit 2nd or 3rd go, and then smashed a route in on the 4th or 5th try.
This x 2.

Paul B

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...and then smashed a route in on the 4th or 5th try.

I'm always amazed when you say this as beyond 3rd go my skin is usually getting damaged in specific places on UK lime and it feels like I'm risking needing a fair amount of time away for it to heal.

abarro81

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I've lost count of the number of times I've had a shit 2nd or 3rd go, and then smashed a route in on the 4th or 5th try.

I've also lost count of that for me, but only because I counted to 0 and then started wondering whether you could really count 'to' zero, or some such shit. But as discussed above, I think I have a habit of being quite 'fit' in that I do well on enduro routes whilst not being very 'fit' in a day-fitness/work capacity sense... plus if I have 2 good goes and one shit go, I go home, like Stu tells me not to.

I suspect someone like Noble is the opposite of me in this sense - he might have a tough time on an enduro route 'cos he never does enduro routes, but he can go out an boulder a couple of grades below his max for hours on end and then get up and do the same the next day.

Smith42

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Thanks guys, I suspected I was getting the volume/intestity/frequency at bit wrong.  Its just hard to sacrifice bouldering, even indoors (The Valley/Pool in Newcastle, so many cool problems each week!)

 

SA Chris

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If you don't have a powernap between attempts it ain't happening

petejh

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If you don't have a powernap hanging off a kneebar en-route it ain't happening

Fixed

jwi

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If you don't have a powernap hanging off a kneebar off-route it ain't happening

Fixed
Fixed

moose

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If you don't have a powernap between attempts it ain't happening

+1 Once in RP campaign mode, I'll usually be found at Kilnsey laying on a bouldering mat for hours at a time reading a book or doing Guardian cryptics - anything less than 1.5 rest and I risk leaving some capacity behind.

 

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