But, the BMC would be mental if it were not to be SEEN to be trying to widen participation whilst a sport were rapidly growing
Apologies lads, just playing devil's advocate and trying to suggest an alternative to simply reducing the growth of the community. It was Hueco I had in mind but this is much larger in scale to the single crags we are discussing. I know it would be an inconvenience but would it really stop you if you knew that on a prime day you had access to a crag with the correct number of similarly forward planning and enthusiastic people at it?
If you put your ear to the ground you will hear the sound of Ken Wilson turning.
Quote from: asmallman on March 15, 2018, 11:19:56 amApologies lads, just playing devil's advocate and trying to suggest an alternative to simply reducing the growth of the community. It was Hueco I had in mind but this is much larger in scale to the single crags we are discussing. I know it would be an inconvenience but would it really stop you if you knew that on a prime day you had access to a crag with the correct number of similarly forward planning and enthusiastic people at it? 1. I presume you don't sport climb in the UK much. Or boulder on limestone for that matter. Forward planning + UK conditions != happy climbers.2. Why on earth would anyone ever be in favour of this as compared to not encouraging growth? The fact that you can think of a crap solution to a potential problem is not a reason to attempt to enhance/speed up the problem!
giving up a few hours to wait and chat to climbers about to park badly at Kilnsey
I agree with offwidth regarding community involvement, I took part in a Dumby clean up day for a couple of years (the only two times it happened that I can remember) and it was great and certainly helped rid this unique climbing/outdoor pub in to a nice place for a few days. This was all done through the local people rather than through the BMC.
Like offwidth said earlier, the BMC can and will prioritise access etc over raising participation. That'll be driven by the views of the majority of members.
It's naive to think that the BMC can stop the tide of participation, or that it won't happen anyway, given what's going on around it. Some of what's driving this is a concern for what it looks like in future. The sensible think to do is to ride the tide to put itself in position to be able to support and influence when it needs to.
Quote from: asmallman on March 15, 2018, 11:19:56 amI agree with offwidth regarding community involvement, I took part in a Dumby clean up day for a couple of years (the only two times it happened that I can remember) and it was great and certainly helped rid this unique climbing/outdoor pub in to a nice place for a few days. This was all done through the local people rather than through the BMC.This is my own experience of 'volunteering' in a climbing context - i.e. It's mostly about what you as an individual decide to do or not do, and much less about doing it because the BMC or some other organisation leads the way. It's very often individuals who make things happen, not organisations. The argument often made in these debates, especially by Offwidth, is that we need the BMC to organise all the good voluntary work done within climbing, and therefore de-facto we should be supportive of growth of the BMC and increasing funding to the BMC. This is plainly false - a huge amount of 'voluntary' work within a climbing context goes unnoticed, unannounced and isn't directly organised by the BMC. However, where the BMC is great is in the background supply of funds or materials - I'm talking about fixed gear mainly but other stuff too. That isn't a massive cost in the big picture, but it carries a massive impact to the quality of a climber's experience. Same goes for crag access. Without which we wouldn't have much to experience.I think organisations like the BMC are best when they're in the background, and not leading and trying to be bigger for the sake of being bigger. That isn't to say I don't think the BMC don't do great work - I think they do.
Quote from: JR on March 15, 2018, 01:26:40 pmIt's naive to think that the BMC can stop the tide of participation, or that it won't happen anyway, given what's going on around it. Some of what's driving this is a concern for what it looks like in future. The sensible think to do is to ride the tide to put itself in position to be able to support and influence when it needs to.
I don't understand what is here for you?I think it's the ride the tide bit. which I interpret as stay prominent and visible to the growth element so that it can influence them in a positive way.Do you see it differently?
Participation increases for sport and bouldering are happening anyway and it needs the BMC to step up education on why honeypots can be a problem and lead to access issues. I think its harder to do that if the BMC formally stands against increases in climbing participation.
Out of interest - and maybe trying to find some perspective(b) how of these outdoor sites are there where 'overuse' is a contemporary issue (apart from Kilnsey when its not gopping..)?
Quote from: Offwidth on March 15, 2018, 01:34:41 pmParticipation increases for sport and bouldering are happening anyway and it needs the BMC to step up education on why honeypots can be a problem and lead to access issues. I think its harder to do that if the BMC formally stands against increases in climbing participation.Quite simply - why?
I'd say all the above average popularity Peak bouldering venues are arguably suffering from contemporary overuse issues and most of the most popular venues elsewhere in the UK with especial problems on softer sandstones.
Quote from: tomtom on March 15, 2018, 01:57:56 pmOut of interest - and maybe trying to find some perspective(b) how of these outdoor sites are there where 'overuse' is a contemporary issue (apart from Kilnsey when its not gopping..)?I'd say all the above average popularity Peak bouldering venues are arguably suffering from contemporary overuse issues and most of the most popular venues elsewhere in the UK with especial problems on softer sandstones.
Quote from: petejh on March 15, 2018, 02:05:43 pmQuote from: Offwidth on March 15, 2018, 01:34:41 pmParticipation increases for sport and bouldering are happening anyway and it needs the BMC to step up education on why honeypots can be a problem and lead to access issues. I think its harder to do that if the BMC formally stands against increases in climbing participation.Quite simply - why?Because it will risk being seen as an outside interefering body full of selfish protectionists by those transitioning outdoors and the organisations assisting in that, like walls and group instruction. You don't facilitate benefical change by being on the outside complaining.