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RIP Whitehouses (Read 25702 times)

spidermonkey09

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#25 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 05, 2018, 12:31:24 pm
What about a noticeboard at the local walls with the names of the local crags that people are likely to visit, particularly those in shooting areas, or not on CRoW with a red/yellow/green label next to them indicating the state of access.

Great idea. Could easily be done, alongside a massive type reminder to 'CHECK THE RAD' in red or something.

teestub

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#26 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 05, 2018, 12:56:31 pm
I guess something this does highlight is a potential landowner response to the ‘I’m sure it will be fine there’s a footpath next to it’ approach to development and the ‘just keep climbing there until a real issue develops’ access approach.

spidermonkey09

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#27 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 05, 2018, 01:28:13 pm
True, though I would still argue that this is a very extreme reaction and not one that has happened before where that approach to development/ access has been taken; to the best of my knowledge.

 However you're right, prevention is better than cure and in some cases such as this it can't be cured, so in general the conversation should be had sooner rather than later.

205Chris

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#28 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 05, 2018, 05:54:29 pm
As for the BMC doing fuck all the minutes of the last two meetings suggest that is not quite the case:

Minutes of meeting 11 Sept

Whitehouses boulder – this has created a few access issues as it is on private land with a public footpath alongside. The farmer does not want any climbing on this at the current time – Mick (Johnson) is going to speak to him

Minutes of meeting 27 Nov

Whitehouses boulder – has found the owner, access issues still ongoing. The farmer does not want any
climbing on this at the current time


Hi Simon, someone posted this on the other channel on 4th December:

Quote
Mick has been active and visited landowners in the area. He reported at the last area BMC meeting that there was little problem with people climbing there so long as people are sensible in their approach to parking and access. The outline above seems eminently workable and surely no one could argue otherwise?

If that's true it's hard to work out how people left the meeting with pretty much the polar opposite understanding of what was minuted  :shrug:

I'd be interested in hearing back from anyone who goes to the area meet tonight

teestub

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#29 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 05, 2018, 06:03:20 pm
From memory at the last meeting Mick said he was still trying to contact the land owner. I’ve not seen any official BMC update beyond that. I’ll hear reports from tonight’s meeting with interest.

spidermonkey09

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#30 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 05, 2018, 10:11:33 pm
From the meeting:

I questioned whether Mick had said what was minuted regarding access being a problem but others seemed to remember him saying words to the effect of 'id leave it alone for now.' Either way a disconnect has clearly happened because there's different accounts of who said what all over the place.

As to who Mick spoke to, it was hard to find out for sure because he's recovering from a broken hip. He knocked on a few doors and found it quite hard to find out who actually owned the land. It seems there are three (at least) parties involved: the people who live in the house across from the parking (not the farmer/landowner it seems), the landowner, and the tenant farmer. Consensus seems to be that Mick tracked down the landowner, who was reasonably ok with the idea as long as parking etiquette was observed. To reinforce the point, no one actually knew because Mick wasn't there to ask (personally
I don't really think this is good enough and we need to work out exactly who spoke to who when to ensure it doesn't happen again). However, regardless of what the landowner thought, it looks like the likeliest scenario is the tenant farmer having an altercation/bad experience with parking and taking retributive action. Not that we know for sure, so I'll stop short of fully blaming him!

My personal view of how it all unfolded is that it's a really sad tale of missed opportunities and bad luck, to prevent the problem arising. At exactly the moment access tensions started getting worse, Mick had broken his hip and wasn't around to talk to the landowner/investigate further. By the way, this is totally fair enough and I'm not laying blame. The climbing community proceeded to shoot itself in the foot repeatedly by being rude to a person who asked them to move their car and be rude to the farmer when he asked people to leave. This is probably the saddest thing. Mixed messages and warnings about access bounced around UKC, UKB, Facebook and word of mouth but the BMC failed to put out a proper warning that access was worsening and Mick was still laid up. Paul Clarke updated the RAD but to top it all off the app wasn't working and so many people who might have looked probably simply didn't bother. So many missed opportunities along the way to fix it.

Apologies for long post, hope I've answered a few questions. I'm sure Andy will update on the Yorkshire bmc page as well but if anyone has any q's I'll do my best to answer.

tomtom

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#31 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 06:08:12 am
Maybe UKB needs a 'Post up evidence of bad crag behaviour'* type thread - like the tick mark hall of fame. Pics of bad parking, litter etc... at the crag.

What made me think of this were the 2 or 3 pics on the YorkshireGrit FB page of people along the top of the stone wall to get to the crag instead of along the muddy path (with pads - not just walkers/stoners)....

*it needs a much snappier name.. it is 6am...

Also - I have a relative on the BMC Yorks committee - I'll ask next time I see them if there is any back story or not..

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#32 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 09:17:48 am
"WHITEHOUSES
Many of you will have seen Dan Turners post about damage to Whitehouses. The BMC clearly deplores such actions and the Area Access Rep is investigating this further to try and identify who did this and why. However in the mean time to address some of the comments we have seen:
1. The Area Access Rep had spoken to the Land Owner and understood he had their agreement that climbing could continue, unfortunately he was unable to speak to the Tenant and local residents before he was house bound by a serious injury. There was no suggestion by him that as it's only hard problems nothing was, or would be, done to address it.
2. This area has been a 'friction point' for a while. More unfortunately some climbers have been unhelpful in their conduct and even when asked, by other climbers, to not park irresponsibly etc have refused. This clearly has not helped the situation.
3. Access to private land is not a right. Landowners get no benefit from allowing access and if allowing climbing costs them time and/or money they will stop it. It is beholden on us ALL to ensure that we act in a way that does not damage their property or make their job harder. i.e. Check RAD (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/) for up to date restrictions, don't block gates or roads with bad parking, don't leave litter, keep noise and disturbance to a minimum and be polite. #Respecttherock
4. If there is any problem with access to private land please comply with the request (however unreasonable you think it is) and report it to us or the BMC Access officer so we can negotiate a solution. It's far better to lose access to a project or area for a short time than to lose access permanently (Eagle Tor), or irrevocably (as in this case)."

Copied from BMC Yorkshire area FB page... Not sure it says anything else new but here it is anyway,,,

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#33 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 10:00:28 am
Good report from you guys. It does sound like a culmination of "small" issues from difficult communication on their side (landowner vs tenant farmer vs nearby residents) to poor behaviour by some climbers. Hopefully something useful can come out of this like TT suggests.

nai

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#34 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 10:32:05 am
If the parking at my kids' school is anything to go by we've got no chance of changing things.

Despite ample parking 2 minutes away a number of folk still try to park 100m either side of the school gate every day, rendering the road a single carriageway with passing spaces, latecomers park across drives and encroach onto the zig zags, thus filling the passing spaces and causing chaos.  Wet days are the worse, absolutely carnage.

We get a letter twice every half term (just had one today which made me think of this), about every four weeks, regular walk-to-school initiatives, even have the police down a couple of times a year to monitor and educate. Nothing ever changes, basically you have otherwise responsible parents saying fuck other kids' safety as long as mine don't have to walk too far and I can get off to work pronto.

A farmer's gate? Fuck that, I want to go climbing and I've only got while the baby's asleep.

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#35 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 01:30:11 pm
If the parking at my kids' school is anything to go by we've got no chance of changing things.

Despite ample parking 2 minutes away a number of folk still try to park 100m either side of the school gate every day, rendering the road a single carriageway with passing spaces, latecomers park across drives and encroach onto the zig zags, thus filling the passing spaces and causing chaos.  Wet days are the worse, absolutely carnage.

We get a letter twice every half term (just had one today which made me think of this), about every four weeks, regular walk-to-school initiatives, even have the police down a couple of times a year to monitor and educate. Nothing ever changes, basically you have otherwise responsible parents saying fuck other kids' safety as long as mine don't have to walk too far and I can get off to work pronto.

A farmer's gate? Fuck that, I want to go climbing and I've only got while the baby's asleep.


Whilst I suspect there might be some who come to the crag with this mindset surely a it's worth trying something like signage to raise awareness at specific popular venues - I'm thinking somewhere with private land access issues and lots of visitors next to North Rigton. Until the BMC or local climbers try something like signage so that absolutely no-one can fail to be aware of what you should/shouldn't be doing on a specific piece of land I suspect most will remain conveniently 'unaware' of any sensitivites. Given that I doubt many people look at the RAD, surely it's worth seeing what happens when people can't claim they're not aware that they shouldn't be walking along that wall/across that field...

spidermonkey09

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#36 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 02:29:34 pm
Quote

Whilst I suspect there might be some who come to the crag with this mindset surely a it's worth trying something like signage to raise awareness at specific popular venues - I'm thinking somewhere with private land access issues and lots of visitors next to North Rigton. Until the BMC or local climbers try something like signage so that absolutely no-one can fail to be aware of what you should/shouldn't be doing on a specific piece of land I suspect most will remain conveniently 'unaware' of any sensitivites. Given that I doubt many people look at the RAD, surely it's worth seeing what happens when people can't claim they're not aware that they shouldn't be walking along that wall/across that field...

To be fair there is now a sign at this particular crag advising of sensitivities regarding lamping/drones etc. Would like to see more at other crags for the reasons you suggest.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 02:53:57 pm by shark, Reason: sorting out quotation »

Paul B

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#37 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 02:48:04 pm
Maybe UKB needs a 'Post up evidence of bad crag behaviour'* type thread - like the tick mark hall of fame. Pics of bad parking, litter etc... at the crag.

What made me think of this were the 2 or 3 pics on the YorkshireGrit FB page of people along the top of the stone wall to get to the crag instead of along the muddy path (with pads - not just walkers/stoners)....

It's just posturing though; what you actually need is a method of education that captures the growing routes into climbing (which would've usually entailed someone older/more experienced with an outdoor background) and those willing to actively challenge bad behaviour.

People were more than happy to post on FB about parking etc but only a small minority actually asked people to move or walked the length of the crag asking who's blue Mazda was parked blocking the gate etc.

Also IMO ambassadors for brands/institutions should be called out when leaving kit in etc.

nai

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#38 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 04:40:26 pm
what you actually need is a method of education that captures the growing routes into climbing

Anyone attempting to buy a bouldering mat has to watch a short film on the countryside code and sit an exam.


Paul B

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#39 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 04:59:18 pm
I'm not entirely sure of the solution (as it's complex) but believe it warrants some thought (especially for those promoting the uptake of climbing; including the BMC), as a start, simple things such as:


Will Hunt

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#40 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 06:24:02 pm
what you actually need is a method of education that captures the growing routes into climbing

Anyone attempting to buy a bouldering mat has to watch a short film on the countryside code and sit an exam.

You know, that's actually not a terrible thought. Get rid of the exam bit, but it would probably be easy to persuade some of the pad producers to slip an A5 BMC promotional flyer in with all the pads they ship when bought online. Didn't the BMC used to make a poster for walls like "the ten commandments of bouldering"? Something like that? With a link to a website with more info.

Coupled with an increased resolve to call out perpetrators.

Obi-Wan is lost...

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#41 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 07:05:19 pm
Didn't the BMC used to make a poster for walls like "the ten commandments of bouldering"? Something like that?

May need an update.

nai

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#42 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 07:12:01 pm
For stuff like parking across gates and not damaging walls you could point to the Countryside Code but really they're just about respect and common sense and unfortunately a lot of folk seem to leave that behind when they go out.

nai

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#43 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 07:14:26 pm
Actually here you go, a RAD App, with location sensor so it'll give you a warning of any access issues when you get close to a particular crag.

nai

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#44 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 06, 2018, 08:05:42 pm
Actually here you go, a RAD App, with location sensor so it'll give you a warning of any access issues when you get close to a particular crag.

Only I see an app already exists  :-[


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#45 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 07, 2018, 02:02:20 pm
If the parking at my kids' school is anything to go by we've got no chance of changing things.

Despite ample parking 2 minutes away a number of folk still try to park 100m either side of the school gate every day, rendering the road a single carriageway with passing spaces, latecomers park across drives and encroach onto the zig zags, thus filling the passing spaces and causing chaos.  Wet days are the worse, absolutely carnage.

We get a letter twice every half term (just had one today which made me think of this), about every four weeks, regular walk-to-school initiatives, even have the police down a couple of times a year to monitor and educate. Nothing ever changes, basically you have otherwise responsible parents saying fuck other kids' safety as long as mine don't have to walk too far and I can get off to work pronto.

A farmer's gate? Fuck that, I want to go climbing and I've only got while the baby's asleep.

Bang on with every point.  :agree:

shark

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#47 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 07, 2018, 05:49:04 pm
My opinions on the Whitehouses situation. Also highlights the damaged caused.




Will Hunt

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#48 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 08, 2018, 08:21:24 am
I think the difference is that the Vixen Tor ban was always seen as being pointless and gratuitous. I'm this instance there is clear documentation of climbers failing to comply with very reasonable requests from the landowner/tenant.

SA Chris

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#49 Re: RIP Whitehouses
February 08, 2018, 09:51:55 am
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

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