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Intermittent Fasting (Read 14657 times)

TobyD

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#50 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 01, 2019, 11:00:10 pm
Fair point Toby.

It was meant to trivialise skipping meals rather than the ED. Admit I didn’t make the point very well.

No worries mate, sorry if I sounded a bit harsh! I thought it needed saying though. Essentially my take would be that everyone is best off eating regularly, healthily, and eating what they like. Any fasting only works if you consume fewer calories overall. I've heard people who observe Ramadan say that they always gain weight as they binge after the fast.

Some have mentioned fasted exercise; assuming ones goal is to be better at climbing I'm dubious if this has much benefit. If you're a tdf cyclist and it's to give you an extra 0.5% for alpe d'huez fair enough, but we're in general talking about trying to get better at boulder problems / sport routes here, right? Maybe dropping a small amount of weight to get a long term project done, but as a life plan this sort of thing seems dubious to me.

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#51 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 08:06:40 pm
At the risk of trivialising eating disorders even more [will me posting this make me responsible for scores of folk with ED suffering more or re-lapsing  :-\, no I don't think it will], There are millions of people all around you - probably including friends and relatives - who, with a different perspective, could fit into the category of having an eating disorder. . People who intermittent fast aren't among them.

Also, there's a lot of credible research on gene expression, NAD+, Mitochondia etc. and the place of 'alternative eating protocols'. A bit like how the perspective shifted on smoking sometime around the early 2000s - from knowing it was unhealthy to being blatantly obvs that it was a fucking insane roll of the disease dice, I think we're rapidly moving toward a place where the current eating habits of the majority will be seen for what they are - clearly promoting ill health compared to other ways of eating.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 08:20:21 pm by petejh »

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#52 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 08:13:35 pm
You seem very certain about that Pete. What’s the definition of an eating disorder in your opinion then?

petejh

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#53 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 08:24:16 pm
I edited the post above I think after your reply which may go some way to an answer.

But I think consuming high amounts of refined sugars in conjunction with high amounts of saturated fats is very likely to increase the probability of ill health of one kind or another, through chronic inflammation - however that manifests in disease. The science is fairly certain.

The average person's diet is high in refined sugar and high in saturated fat. That is my definition of an eating disorder - eating food that damages your health. Bodyweight (over or under) is secondary to the damage caused by the actual food consumed.

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#54 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 09:06:54 pm
Yeah, that’s nicely trivialising an awful, soul destroying, mental health issue and conflating it with poor diet.

I think the “science” on that is pretty settled.

But poor diet does not an eating disorder make, however unhealthy the results.




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#55 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 09:10:12 pm
Hang on Matt, maybe Pete could write a new description for the dsm V? Get everyone one on beetroot juice, keto, fasting, clean eating protocols. That should sort us all out 🤣

petejh

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#56 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 09:29:55 pm
 ::)

There isn't any conflating going on here Matt.
Eating disorders (the DSM version) are indeed ''awful, soul destroying, mental health issue''. Fortunately they're also extremely rare, relatively.

The 'metabolic triad' - Obesity, Hypertension and Diabetes - are similarly ''awful and soul destroying'' to live with, but in a more chronic lifelong way and perhaps less dramatic way than a typical ED. The eating habits that lie behind the triad of obesity/hypertension & diabetes can in many instances be linked with emotional health. And the numbers of people affected are orders of magnitude greater than for eating disorders and cost the health service vast amounts of resources to treat.
But lets ignore all that, and lets argue against the person pointing out the blatantly obvious massive problem; and lets focus on the tiny number of people with a dramatic and awful mental health condition instead.  ::)

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#57 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 09:39:41 pm
Could it be that health issues due to bad diet is partly (mostly?) the fault of the globally multi trillion $ food industry??  That never lobbies??


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#58 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 09:56:31 pm
Lobbying in/of itself isn't a problem. I expect your particular engineering speciality has some kind of lobby group TT for funding and resources. The tobacco industry infamously lobbied long and hard but ultimately lost after winning many battles. Lobby groups can't win when when the evidence for something becomes so clear (unless a government is so corrupt it can hide what it likes), and that's where I think the direction of travel is regards high consumption of sugar especially.

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#59 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 09:57:10 pm
::)

There isn't any conflating going on here Matt.
Eating disorders (the DSM version) are indeed ''awful, soul destroying, mental health issue''. Fortunately they're also extremely rare, relatively.

The 'metabolic triad' - Obesity, Hypertension and Diabetes - are similarly ''awful and soul destroying'' to live with, but in a more chronic lifelong way and perhaps less dramatic way than a typical ED. The eating habits that lie behind the triad of obesity/hypertension & diabetes can in many instances be linked with emotional health. And the numbers of people affected are orders of magnitude greater than for eating disorders and cost the health service vast amounts of resources to treat.
But lets ignore all that, and lets argue against the person pointing out the blatantly obvious massive problem; and lets focus on the tiny number of people with a dramatic and awful mental health condition instead.  ::)

Here's some relevant quotes from a BJSM paper

Quote
Even among female athletes the rates of eating disorder vary by sport and have generally been higher in sports ... where having a low body mass is seen as advantageous (such as cross-country or cycling)

In one study, 20% of female athletes and 8% of male athletes met criteria for an eating disorder, compared to 9% of female controls and 0.5% of male controls.

Climbing Magazine has a lengthy report with some similar statistics.

Quote from: climbing mag
Of that group, the number of climbers with symptoms of eating disorders was nine percent. In women, that proportion was 17 percent.

And only this week did I listen to Magnus Midtbo talking about struggling to focus, struggling to sleep, and being irritable, all as a result of attempting to maintain a low bodyweight for competition climbing.

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#60 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 10:24:50 pm
Joel beat me to it.

Vanishingly rare within the general population. Massively over represented, by that standard, within our own and other sports. And even within this forum.
Pete, you are talking about a different thing, even if it does lead to long term issues, even if it is disordered eating; it is not an eating disorder. Saying that it is, just because it involves eating, is akin to saying a Coldsore is the same thing as Ebola, because they both involve viruses.

Or, to put it another way, present a person living on a poor diet, with a better one, they will eat it, when they’re hungry and their health will improve. Present an eating disorder sufferer, with the finest, most carefully balanced, nutritiously engineered, repast; they will continue to (effectively) starve to death.

Plus, I reckon you’ve really pissed off and belittled people who are reading this thread and, in doing so, caused harm, because you HAVE conflated a blatent matter of willpower, oppressive marketing and convenience, with a genuine mental illness.

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#61 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 03, 2019, 11:01:31 pm
Lobbying in/of itself isn't a problem. I expect your particular engineering speciality has some kind of lobby group TT for funding and resources. The tobacco industry infamously lobbied long and hard but ultimately lost after winning many battles. Lobby groups can't win when when the evidence for something becomes so clear (unless a government is so corrupt it can hide what it likes), and that's where I think the direction of travel is regards high consumption of sugar especially.

????
No lobbying group in what I work as. Thank god!

A form of bribery that sits just above the law would be my definition of lobbying.

Have a look at the (well reported) power of the corn syrup trade in the US.

William Morris etc. May have been on a burning platform for 50 years or more. But look how much money they’ve made in the meantime (and are still making). Amongst the Best performing stocks of all time over that period I believe....

Ah.... opioid crisis in the US is another example...

And let’s not talk about Oil - who’s relentless lobbying will have irretrievably changed (for the worse) our worlds climate.

Yeah. Paying someone in power to change their mind is no biggy.

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#62 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 11:46:03 am
So, having just skim-read this thread...

Am I to understand that the bottom line is that those who have reported to having followed an IF regime have all been successful in loosing weight, and most suggest this is purely because it encourages a caloric deficit (and you pay more attention to what you eat)?

It would be interesting to view the macros, calories and weight trends of around 40 people who follow an IF methodology vs 40 people who just try to eat healthily, all of which train for climbing at similar levels, and see if there really is any mileage in IF beyond just being a methodology for intake management (see if IFers are more or less likely to binge etc).
To google scholar!

In the mean time, this looks a little like shooting fish in a barrel, but this meta-analysis >> https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2011.00873.x >> suggests that maybe there is something in fasting for retaining 'lean mass'.

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#63 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 11:55:40 am
Plus, I reckon you’ve really pissed off and belittled people who are reading this thread and, in doing so, caused harm, because you HAVE conflated a blatent matter of willpower, oppressive marketing and convenience, with a genuine mental illness.

What a load of bollocks Matt. 'If' I've made somebody feel that way, and I sincerely hope I haven't, then they'll be fully capable of letting me know themselves; they don't need you sticking your righteous oar in.

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#64 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 12:15:27 pm
This thread seems to have gone off on a poorly articulated tangent regrading the semantics of what does and/or should constitute an eating disorder.. but going back to the original post that kicked it off - I can't see how IF would in any way necessarily imply an eating disorder.

Pete - if I understand your point correctly I think it's (1) interesting and (2) possibly valid

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#65 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 12:20:41 pm
Plus, I reckon you’ve really pissed off and belittled people who are reading this thread and, in doing so, caused harm, because you HAVE conflated a blatent matter of willpower, oppressive marketing and convenience, with a genuine mental illness.



What a load of bollocks Matt. 'If' I've made somebody feel that way, and I sincerely hope I haven't, then they'll be fully capable of letting me know themselves; they don't need you sticking your righteous oar in.

Bad diet is not a fucking eating disorder.

You are being a self-righteous pedant, pushing your own prejudiced view and trampling over the lives of others.

Put up your evidence that the medical world agrees that poor diet, or the “Western” diet, or whatever; is regarded as a psychological disorder, with similar treatment protocols; or grow up.

And, no.

The problem is, people don’t want to discuss, with someone so dismissive, their mental health. So, again, no, they won’t “let you know” they’ll just feel more diminished and lose another notch of self respect.

You’re wrong Pete. Completely wrong.

Again, poor diet is not an eating disorder.

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#66 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 12:24:02 pm
How about the people who posted on this thread originally?

When I read about this last year I thought “That sounds like a bad idea, it’s going to be very hard to stick to and if you do manage to stick with it you’ve basically developed an eating disorder”.

Thirteen months on do the people who were going to try it still do it? Do you weigh more, less or the same as you did back then?

I tried intermittent fasting early last year, but only intermittently and never for longer than 18 hours at a time. It was mildly interesting in that missing breakfast was not the disaster my mum said it would be, however neither did I reach the higher state of consciousness the fasting zealots predicted. I didn’t feel healthier, happier or a better person, and it was completely unsuccessful as a weight loss strategy. In defence of IF, I had a lot else going on at the time which wasn’t helping.

In general, I seem less sensitive to diet manipulation than others report, perhaps because it’s not a disaster in the first place or perhaps I’m not naturally a fanatic about anything. I’ve never tried cutting sugar which would be the big challenge for me (meat and alcohol easy in comparison). I’ve a period of  temporary bachelordom starting in April and this could be an opportunity to do something more radical if I could be persuaded.

Toby, I take your point about healthy lifestyle versus “diets”, however you are already enviably light (I’m guessing I weigh >15kg more for a similar height) and dropping 5kg has had a very marked effect on my performance and - holy grail - I’d love to be able to sustain this. 

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#67 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 12:36:59 pm
Plus, I reckon you’ve really pissed off and belittled people who are reading this thread and, in doing so, caused harm, because you HAVE conflated a blatent matter of willpower, oppressive marketing and convenience, with a genuine mental illness.

What a load of bollocks Matt. 'If' I've made somebody feel that way, and I sincerely hope I haven't, then they'll be fully capable of letting me know themselves; they don't need you sticking your righteous oar in.

Bad diet is not a fucking eating disorder.

You are being a self-righteous pedant, pushing your own prejudiced view and trampling over the lives of others.

Put up your evidence that the medical world agrees that poor diet, or the “Western” diet, or whatever; is regarded as a psychological disorder, with similar treatment protocols; or grow up.

And, no.

The problem is, people don’t want to discuss, with someone so dismissive, their mental health. So, again, no, they won’t “let you know” they’ll just feel more diminished and lose another notch of self respect.

You’re wrong Pete. Completely wrong.

Again, poor diet is not an eating disorder.

Total and utter righteous bollocks again Matt. ::)

I'm completely aware what the strict definition of an eating disorder is and what it isn't. It seems you're unable to grasp that I was playing on words by suggesting that eating in a way which is highly likely to be a cause of chronic ill health, is 'an eating disorder' - i.e. a disordered way of eating. 

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#68 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 12:46:59 pm
No Pete.

Words are important, especially when dealing with mental illness.
People get knocked down by things they’ed normally consider trivial. You even made a weak joke about wheter or not you’d upset people, then decreed you would not and went ahead and made a wholly unnecessary conflation of two very different things.
And when told why it was inappropriate, you doubled down.

You call me self righteous, for trying to mitigate your trivialising of a serious issue. I even apologised to you, in a pm, for coming across more harsh and abrupt than I’d intended, before you began the Double down routine; because I’d typed in the car between a funeral and a wake, left it too late to edit and realised I’d come over too strong much later.

So, enough pm’s.

I told you what the issue was.


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#69 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 12:56:08 pm
I hadn't noticed I'd got any Pm's, so hadn't read them.It usually takes me a few visits to notice them.

'because I’d typed in the car between a funeral and a wake'
Maybe not the best timing..

Like I said, you don't need to assume the role of defender of anyone on here. People are able to disagree for themselves.


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#70 Re: Intermittent Fasting
March 04, 2019, 05:37:55 pm
C’mon lads put the handbags away. Let’s face it Pete is wrong in the traditional context but right on his own terms, and barrows agrees with him so it must be valid

 

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