UKBouldering.com

A quick energy system assessment (Read 1895 times)

Sasquatch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1831
  • Karma: +138/-1
  • www.akclimber.com
    • AkClimber
A quick energy system assessment
January 16, 2018, 07:41:00 pm
I'm curious if others have seen this article from Erik Horst:

http://trainingforclimbing.com/what-you-can-learn-from-margo-hayes-send-of-biography-5-15a/

I thought it was one of the better ones I've seen from him.  It does a good job of explaining certain things about energy systems in a way that seems to make sense to non-training savvy people.


Sasquatch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1831
  • Karma: +138/-1
  • www.akclimber.com
    • AkClimber
#1 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 16, 2018, 09:40:02 pm
I was also curious about others opinions of the assessment. 

Off the top of my head, he massively understates the perectnage of "deadpointing" she does.  She flows highly dynamically through easily 75% or more of the moves, not always "deadpointing", but almost always fluid and dynamic. 

teestub

Offline
  • **
  • menacing presence
  • Posts: 232
  • Karma: +27/-2
  • Cyber Wanker
#2 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 16, 2018, 11:16:42 pm
Thanks for sharing this, it's a really interesting analysis, it's easy to think people aren't climbing that fast in videos until you actually see the breakdown!

Agree re the dynamic flowing climbing style, although Horst seems to be referring to deadpoints when there's a sag of the hips to initiate the movement.

If you've not watched Reel Rock this year it's worth it just for the section with Margo, thought it did a great job of portraying her character and drive.

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2419
  • Karma: +107/-4
#3 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 17, 2018, 07:46:52 am
Climb quickly and efficiently between rests :shrug:. It’s hardly ground breaking stuff? He doesn’t mention the massive aerobic base required to recover at those rests. That’s the interesting bit as many of us could imagine climbing one of those ‘chunks’ just as efficiently as she does.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2523
  • Karma: +202/-22
#4 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 17, 2018, 09:33:43 am
If you watch it compared to watching the Sharmay on it, I think the most striking thing is her ability to keep her ass so close in to the wall on lots of moves. Noticed this when she was warming up on the Foundry board for the Moon board comp too.. Interestingly, we saw Mina Markovic in Margalef at Christmas and she was exactly the same... I need to do some stretching!

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2419
  • Karma: +107/-4
#5 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 17, 2018, 09:45:25 am
Climb quickly and efficiently between rests :shrug:. It’s hardly ground breaking stuff? He doesn’t mention the massive aerobic base required to recover at those rests. That’s the interesting bit as many of us could imagine climbing one of those ‘chunks’ just as efficiently as she does.

OK, maybe not just as efficiently  ;), but certainly as quickly.

jwi

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1971
  • Karma: +137/-0
  • uhm... huh?
    • On Steep Ground
#6 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 17, 2018, 10:07:30 am
He doesn’t mention the massive aerobic base required to recover at those rests.

I snapped some photos of a friend dogging the route and he told me that he could imagine getting to the rest at 6:45 before the redpoint-crux, but could not imagine recovering on those holds.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 10:13:54 am by jwi »

tomtom

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 15818
  • Karma: +475/-8
#7 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 17, 2018, 10:39:11 am
Really interesting analysis. For me especially the deadpointing(ish) methods... this is something that can easily be practiced/worked on at a wall (along with hips in)....

I've only climbed a couple of times with Jasper - but things I noticed about his climbing were (a) he was incredibly accurate with his feet (no faffing to find the right spot etc..) (b) hips in (c) deadpointed alot of things very accurately.

Whilst idly thinking - I was interested in a couple of Shauna videos on instafacegram where she was doing one handed climbing - which thinking about it (a little) forces you to do deadpoint type body movements etc..

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3281
  • Karma: +351/-16
#8 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 17, 2018, 02:36:30 pm
Good read that. I've just messaged Eric to see if he's interested in doing a comparison analysis of unedited footage I filmed on my phone of Ondra attempting to flash Biographie. Makes for an interesting comparison - mega long rests with very little climbing, perhaps a ratio of 10:1? More like watching a trad climber except he's on an 8c+.

Sasquatch

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1831
  • Karma: +138/-1
  • www.akclimber.com
    • AkClimber
#9 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 17, 2018, 06:32:52 pm
Climb quickly and efficiently between rests :shrug:. It’s hardly ground breaking stuff? He doesn’t mention the massive aerobic base required to recover at those rests. That’s the interesting bit as many of us could imagine climbing one of those ‘chunks’ just as efficiently as she does.

I agree it's not "groundbreaking", but I thought it was one of the better examples describing parts of the energy system in practice.
 
Also, seeing it and if you have any video of yourself to make comparisons can be a huge help.  How quickly do you climb?  Are there rests? What do you need to do to maximize those rests (ala Ondra specifically training kneebars for his 9c)  How long does recovery actually take? 

I think the last one is huge, and most people don't rest nearly as long as they think. It's also important to understand how long certain energy systems take to replenish.  i.e resting for 30-40 seconds may decrease your pump so you feel "good", but it may not replenish your ATP for more hard moves.  And your underlying aerobic and anaerobic capacity play a huge role in this recovery. 


Fultonius

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2873
  • Karma: +84/-1
  • Was strong but crap, now weaker but better.
    • Photos
#10 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 17, 2018, 07:53:11 pm
Interesting.

I just watched back my 2 hardest redpoints. The first really consists of 24 hand moves and 23 foot which took me 98 seconds. I did once fall off the easier moves above, but really, it's in the bag at that point. There's on section post crux of submaximal climbing and lots of micro-resting. I averaged 4 seconds per hand move.

The second was much shorter. 14 moves, 60 seconds, no rest!  4.3s/move. When I'm going well, I wouldn't have said speed is a problem for me. Inaccurate footwork though, that can catch me out!

Sasquatch - you make a good point (I think??) about resting being more than de-pumping. Last sport trip in Spain I was really struggling to know how long to rest!  I was moderately pumped at the rest on my last RP, got it back ok...but maybe not enough?  (Although, it wasn't pump that had me off, but a hard/low percentage crux.)

habrich

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3716
  • Karma: +153/-10
#11 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 23, 2018, 06:02:29 pm
I am curious about this comment: "on average hard, sustained climbing (no stop rests) is limited to around 60 seconds". Does this imply that there are biochemical constraints on improving anaerobic endurance and that we should all be ARCing/ AeroCaping more?

petejh

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3281
  • Karma: +351/-16
#12 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 23, 2018, 08:50:42 pm
Someone who knows their onions can correct me, but I think the rules for improving anaerobically is roughly: you can train to increase the time that your forearms are able to exert a given level of force (determined by your max strength) anaerobically, but only up to the fairly short time-limits mentioned.

I think it's correct to say that to get close to your theoretical optimal anaerobic performance, on anything longer than a boulder problem requires you to also have very highly-developed aerobic fitness to be able to clear away the by-products of the anaerobic system on overdrive.

habrich

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3716
  • Karma: +153/-10
#13 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 23, 2018, 09:41:23 pm
I was just listening to this while plodding up and down my systemboard (AeroCap Hi?)
http://www.powercompanyclimbing.com/blog/2016/8/31/episode-10-energy-systems-training-with-eric-horst

Lots of energy system stuff from 25:00. Somewhere in there, (EDIT: 43:35) Horst says that "all recovery is aerobic" which I found thought-provoking. Around 50:00 he seems to be arguing against easy ARC'ing?

If any of our energy system gurus have time to listen, it would be interesting to know how much, if at all, of the podcast is bollocks?

« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 09:50:20 pm by habrich »

nai

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3254
  • Karma: +143/-0
  • In my dreams
#14 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 24, 2018, 01:05:24 pm
Turns out it's been discusssed previously:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,25803.50.html

habrich

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3716
  • Karma: +153/-10
#15 Re: A quick energy system assessment
January 24, 2018, 05:33:21 pm
Thanks - good find.