I'm gonna launch a bid to become President of the BMC (POTBMC).Because I want to make BRITISH MOUNTAINS GREAT AGAIN. To make this happen - I'm gonna build a wall. Not just any old wall, but a massive (did I tell you I'm rich?) wall. Like a terminator uranium wall - and this wall, well its gonna keep out Sports climbers. You know why - you know why? well for years the last presidents have been letting these sports climbers come all over our mountains - they're a there raping and a bolting the hills. Chipping prize bits of our great outdoors - and they're bad guys. I mean these dudes are bad - and they smell (did I tell you my wife is fit?). And when we have this wall -I recon we can build it in 10 days - hell, a week - well then we're gonna round up all those sports climbers and THROW THEM INTO A GIANT CLIMBING WALL. WHERE THEY BELONG. And who's gonna pay for this wall? huh? I tell you, its Decathlon - yeah and they're French too. And then folks, I'm tellin ya, we'll have our crags and outcrops to ourselves - no more 'send' or 'dab' shit - that's gonna be outlawed by executive order. TRUE.
We're up and running! I'll set the alarm for 5am to give some NEWS.
Is there a non selfish reason( less people at the crags) reason that increased participation shouldn't be encouraged? Am I missing something? I can't see how it can be a bad thing?
It's pretty plain to see that an increase in participation, especially if extra numbers are seeping in from indoor walls with no background in responsible use of the outdoors, can only be a problem in the mid to longer term. There's always the argument that with increased participation you'll have more people to lobby on access issues etc. But this is a bit like saying you'd want a massive increase in car owners, because yeah the environment take a battering but hey there'll be more people to eventually switch over to electric cars.
Fair points bonjoy, but ultimately driven by a selfish want to keep the crags quieter for you and the other people already using them? I realise there are limits on the numbers crags can handle, but does that make it ok to not share the love, and grow the sport.
I think the majority of climbers in the future won't even want to climb outside.
The BMC could double its membership this year without a new person even starting to climb, if it could engage with indoor users.
I don't know what the answers are, but I find it hard to think the BMC shouldn't be trying to increase participation and members.
Unlike the people behind the motion, I think the BMC has to embrace the direction climbing is going in, and that ultimately means comps and indoor climbing.
Only if you view not wishing to encourage increased participation as a wholly selfish endeavour. If people stop going to stanage or raven tor overnight it's not going to directly benefit me in much of a tangible way, in fact it'd be to my detriment as I'm less likely to get a spot. In actual fact it's more about preserving what we have for use by future generations, making sure everyone who does climb outside, no matter how they come into climbing, they have access to the crags and that the crags are in a decent state.
Quote from: T_B on March 04, 2017, 07:52:41 amI suspect it's inevitable that indoor climbers and comps will end up with a new representative body, separate to the BMC. It will be more commercially focussed, as the sponsorship opportunities associated with this new, mass audience are obvious. Indoor climbing is so far removed from mountaineering, hill walking and the outdoors, it seems artificial to me to pretend we're talking about the same user group. That will leave the BMC to focus on what its members want I.e. Access, without all this agonising over what their responsibility to comps/indoor climbing is. Indoor climbing will be even further removed from what we know as climbing in a few years as walls become a mix of climbing/gym/parkour etc.I don't necessary agree, I think that as things stand it could well be the case but I think this is something the BMC should try to stop from happening. To paraphrase Northern Yob "Indoor climbing is the future if British climbing" is probably true to an extent. I was in the walls in London a few weeks back and chatting to people. One of the last Sats in January was the busiest day the Castle has had, think between 1,200 and 1,400 people through the door. That same day the other walls also had some of their busiest days. People estimated there were around 10,000 people climbing in Greater London that day. A lot of these people don't have a great interest in going outdoors but I don't think this is because they don't like the idea more that they don't really understand it. The walls themselves seem to do very little promotion of outdoor climbing (and why would they) and the BMC/local climbing clubs have an incredibly low profile at the walls. Is this a problem? I think it is for a couple of reasons: "...London mini bus arriving at plantation on a sat morning..." the (indoor/new) climbers who do find out about outdoor climbing tend to hear about the honeypots, they watch the online vids of Dave cruising the Joker and think "I'll have some of that", they don't necessary have the skills to go and do routes at Stoney/Almscliff/Cromlech let alone Gogarth, Scaffell, Pembroke... so these convenient, well documented and safe/bouldering venues get busier. At the same time there are probably fewer and fewer people learning to climb outside - as a kid I started climbing outside (my parents were climbers + pre the rise of indoor walls) but for kids/new climbers now the indoor walls will be a massive draw. More climbers climbing indoors, more climbers bouldering at Plantation etc, fewer climbers with trad skills and appreciation of getting shit scared, trad crags getting overgrown, routes dirty, more people going on bouldering trips to SA, fewer people going chossaneering on the Lleyn, Malham full to bursting point, insitue draws left all over the place, access issues due to overcrowding/insitue gear/litter/lamping sessions at all the popular crags from people who maybe lack the education on outdoor climbing. I would love to see more people at the more obscure trad crags (invested interest: I work for a gear manufacturer), love to hear about Aidean Roberts (insert next "the future" name here) onsighting all Caffs routes and declaring them piss, would love to hear about even more members of the BMC declaring access to crags being the most important thing. The future Houlding (and whoever the other 3 were) is undoubtedly in a climbing wall somewhere but if we're not carefull that's where they might stay. The BMC should engage with the wall culture, support comps but also promote the diversity of climbing, provide inspiration about trad, bouldering, winter climbing, sport... and most importantly provide a route for the young indoor climbers, who want to, to get climbing outside. What Caff is doing is great but it's only a tiny amount and he'll be working less next year.Sure some crags are busy but a) encourage people to the crags which aren't and b) if you don't like lots of people there are plenty of crags you can go to which need more traffic.Sorry, maybe had too strong a coffee
I suspect it's inevitable that indoor climbers and comps will end up with a new representative body, separate to the BMC. It will be more commercially focussed, as the sponsorship opportunities associated with this new, mass audience are obvious. Indoor climbing is so far removed from mountaineering, hill walking and the outdoors, it seems artificial to me to pretend we're talking about the same user group. That will leave the BMC to focus on what its members want I.e. Access, without all this agonising over what their responsibility to comps/indoor climbing is. Indoor climbing will be even further removed from what we know as climbing in a few years as walls become a mix of climbing/gym/parkour etc.
"The BMC could double its membership this year without a new person even starting to climb, if it could engage with indoor users."It could double it's membership if it could engage with outdoor climbers. The SE survey says over 100,000 climb outdoors yet there are only 50 odd thousand members** I am only counting Individual members
As you well know though Dan the 80k figure includes duplicates eg members of multiple clubs and club/individual dual memberships
b) if you don't like lots of people there are plenty of crags you can go to which need more traffic.
