[Dolph]

It's been a while since I last posted, but here seemed like the best place to open this can of worms.

Basically I've been working on a small guide with Lee to the magstone based climbing to the east of the peak. After lots of stuff getting in the way. This is actually starting to get close. This got me thinking about grades and what to put stuff in the guide as. At Anston and Roche as people have repeated stuff, holds have broken and new sequences have been found, sometimes like so many, I just got over excited at the grading of a FA. Many of the grades in the original guide where considered soft by some as a result. What I want to know is what grades do folk think need changing and what to downgrade (let's face it people never admit to grades going up).

Here are a few examples that spring to mind:
For example Dark Art is often quoted as soft at 8a. So is it 7c+
Dangerous Action Man is climbed totally different now to the original line just right of the arete. So is that 7b+ Not 7c?
Passion at Roche. Is this 7b or 7a+?
Black Crow often gets quoted as soft is this 7c?
What about the harder stuff?

Any input is very welcome. I'd like to reach few benchmarks in these main areas then grade other areas accordingly. Whilst I'm against the seemingly current trend of downgrading stuff. It's much better to get this sorted out,  rather than have a book full of grades everyone disagrees with.

[jshaw]

Isn't the access still a bit iffy at Anston?

[Dolph]

That's off the topic.

However the BMC have liased with Natural England and there is no problem with the guided bouldering effecting areas of SSSI status.

The problem is members on the Anston Parish council object and won't meet with local climbers or the BMC to discuss it and the benefits a responsible adult presence has invthe woods.  Winning them over is key. A track record of responsible access is always the most powerful argument. So the advice is to keep going and be polite if confronted.

[jshaw]

 

Awesome.

I was curious as I was politely asked to leave by the rangers (working for Natural England) last time I was there.

[Nibile]

Interesting issue.
I think that it's quite important, whenever possible, to track down the history of a problem, when making a guidebook. History is important. People tend to forget everything.
So, it's good to let them know that a grade change could be due to holds snapping, or new sequences found. This helps keeping the whole downgrading stuff on a clear, honest level.
I remember something I read ages ago, about some guy who thought it was a good idea to publicly declare a lot of Nicole's problems in the less known areas very soft, after repeating them. Like 7c instead of 8a, and so on.
Asked about the issue, Nicole replied very honestly, saying that it could have easily been possible, because he had opened all those problems on the flash try, maybe not finding the best beta.
So, what's behind a boulder grade tells a lot and people should know it all.

[Dolph]

I very much doubt that was an Natural England Ranger! A while back a parish council steward was patrolling trying to stop people from climbing at the request of the council. He tried to turn me away. I refused and told him to go and get the police and prove to me which laws exactly I was breaking. I ended up sitting down and having quite a nice chat with him. He agreed the whole thing was stupid.

That said I was in a mood. I would advise just to be polite and leave or go to a different area, if challenged. I am hoping this has stopped now unless any one has been turned away recently?

[Dolph]

Opening problems and grading them is always at best a total stab in the dark. Things change. Sometimes there is a story behind it such as a new sequence, a slightly different line, changing holds,  but it can just be the rock getting a lot cleaner and just feeling more grippy than it did for the first ascensionist. Sometime politics come into things. Not wanting to tell your mate that the 7c he just cleaned and did is actually 7b. Or grading a line to try an attack a repeat. No one rushes to repeat an 8a that feels like an 8b. They will ignore it.

I'm less bothered about all that, than just wanting to know specifics. I have read a lot crag introductions that say the grading is soft. If that's the case what specifically? Or is it just all of them and  I take all the grades down by one?

[T_B]

I suspect Dark Art is 7C+ if you're tall and can get a footlock at the back for the move from the l-hand crimp sidepull to reach with your right into the right hand hold, before bringing your feet out. If you have to heelhook on the starting r-hand hold, that would seem harder, but maybe not if you're short and therefore not really bunched  Even then it's probably top end 7C+. Some people who have done a few at the grade comment on logbooks that they find it hard. I'd leave it in as soft 8A (it was my first non-trav 8a  ). It's a great problem and harder than some 7C+s on Peak lime (though not many I can think of!). In the context of other problems elsewhere though I don't think 8a is that crazy. Just looking back I did River of Life at Turningstone around the same time. Another roof thing and not as hard as Dark Art imo, despite generally being felt to be stout for 7C+.

I think Black Crow is 7c, partly cos it's so basic, but then it's always damp and so you should maybe give a + for perseverance in going to the crag and eventually being able to do it. When I tried it the first time I went to Anston it felt hard. A couple of years later I did it relatively easily.

Dunno if either of the above helps? They're basically either soft at their grade or hard for the next grade down

Overall, it's nice to go to Anston and have some softies where nearby in the Peak so much is utterly nails for the grade.

[Monolith]

Has anybody repeated Speedway from standing yet!? 7b+ indeed.....

[jshaw]

Apologies,  again.

Hmmm. It was a month or so ago and my memory is a little fuzzy. He and another chap were doing some work on the trees in the wood.

I'd put off climbing there again because of it but looks like it's back on the cards again.

[jshaw]

Grade-wise, the low to mid 7s I've done at Wave, Ebola and Woodies have felt about right.

[Dolph]

I think a ton of stuff in the peak is getting very hard for the grade.  It's had a downward trend for a while, this is not the place to get into why. One approach is to bring the magstone in line with the current grading trend in the peak, as in, if in doubt it goes down. Or to just accept that it's generally 1/2 a grade softer.

Tom yes speedway has been repeated s few time. I think it's settled st 7c+. The sit has been repeated twice as well to my knowledge. One seemingly agreeing with the 8b and another taking 8a+, another soft or hard contender........

Cheers for the feedback! That is exactly what I'm after.

[panhead]

I've climbed a fair few hundred problems over 7a+ and yet I can't do Passion despite a number of sessions on it. Feels solidly in the 7b range to me. My mate though finds it steady.  suggest 7a+/7b?

[Will Hunt]

Anston Stones is about the only place I've bouldered on lime, and I've not done masses there so I don't have huge amounts to compare it with. The only thing that I thought was iffy was that Fine Art and Colt couldn't possibly be the same grade. Colt felt nails, maybe warranting 7B? If Colt is 7A+ then Fine Art definitely needs to come down to 7A. They might even both need changing!

[moose]

Passion felt unfeasible to me - and I normally manage that grade reasonably quickly.  I suspect it's a bit morpho (I have very long legs and big rockovers are a weakness).  Re Anston, the stuff around 7a/7a+ has not generally felt misgraded to  me.   Only exception is maybe Colt which felt prettyeasy.  On thr other hand, I remember struggling  a lot with Last Stand (has something fallen off?).

[bigironhorse]

I have done a few low to mid 7s here and they mainly seemed well graded. Unnamed 7a and Last Stand possibly a little soft. I simply can't do colt whlist finding beretta alright. I think beretta is definitely 7a+ so maybe colt could be 7B? It's possible I just have the beta completely wrong though as I've not tried it that much. All the vertical wave wall problems are spot on. There is a problem called rivendell which gets 6c+ in the guide and I felt like it was more like 6a+ IIRC.

Good work by the way. Looking forward to the new guide.

[moose]

I think this just goes to show how subjective grading is: I thought Colt was incredibly soft (maybe a reach thing).  Beretta, Fine Art and Beta Blocker fair at the grade (for limestone that is - which always seems tough compared to grit for me).  Last Stand I thought was undergraded. I agree re the unnamed 7a seeming too easy.   I found most of the 6c+ - 7a stuff around Borg at Roche very stern (and a bit necky feeling)... and Passion unfeasible.

[andy_e]

Colt felt about 9A when I first tried it but I don't think the grading is too inaccurate once you work out the beta. Moose, I bet you can reach the top with foot locks still in!

[sdm]

Agree on Last Stand feeling hard post breakage. Feels harder than Beretta and Blind Bat.

[moose]

Agree on Last Stand feeling hard post breakage. Feels harder than Beretta and Blind Bat.

Weirdly though, once I did it, I found the extension link into the finish of Alpha fairly steady - like the crux of Last Stand was mainly mental, convincing myself that it was possible.

[bigironhorse]

Agree on Last Stand feeling hard post breakage. Feels harder than Beretta and Blind Bat.

I think I did this pre-breakage and it was my first 7A flash hence me thinking it was soft.

Beta blocker and Reservation both spot on IMO as well.

[bigironhorse]

Agree on Last Stand feeling hard post breakage. Feels harder than Beretta and Blind Bat.

I think I did this pre-breakage and it was my first 7A flash hence me thinking it was soft.

Beta blocker and Reservation both spot on IMO as well.

Actually it wasn't my first 7a flash but thats beside the point!

[Will Hunt]

When did Last Stand break? UKC comments suggest there was definite loss of an ear quite a few years ago. I did it in summer 2015 and thought it was quite easy - did it second go which would be unusual for me. Has something broken since then?

[T_B]

It broke in early 2013 I reckon.

[dave]

The ear one that was a very unusual sticking-out fin like ear thing, ultra positive, between the starting ledge and the high right slopey ledge. You'd know if it was there when you did it.